LIV Golf

[Foxholer]

I can’t tell if your comments are tongue in cheek, but LIV = 54 in Roman numerals so the connection is very concrete.

It's something of a puzzle. Performance 54 has been around a longish time (since 2015) but Performance54 Group, of which there's an 'intersecting' director along with several Saudi ones, only since 2021.
And yes, I know my Roman numerals and the emphasis on '54' - an elegant/convenient creation (some might say 'gimmick') that PR folk are good at dreaming up.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

The press conference where Garcia,Westwood, and Kaymer are asked about the Ryder Cup is here, nobody crying about anything, just pointing out how ridiculously petty the existing tours are behaving in the face of something new.

None of them care about the Ryder Cup anymore

They knew what would happen if they chased the money and off they went

Europe haven’t lost anyone that would potentially play in the next one anyway .

A number of burnt their bridges in regards being Ryder Cup captain though

 

[Slab]

Still on the fence for this whole thing, time will tell I guess

However I’m liking the info on how the caddies are being treated at an LIV event, seems long overdue change for the better (assuming they are OK with the source of the cash that paid for the hotels/flights etc)
Travel, food and accommodation taken care of means unlike pgat/et events where plenty of them go home out of pocket if the player doesn’t make the cut, at least they are being looked after (& even paid extra if they mic up)

Aside from the funding it’d be a brave person to say that aspect isn’t a big positive (& fully deserved) ... or have I been 'washed'

 

[Orikoru]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/61989836

Interesting piece with Westwood on the Ryder Cup here. Telling that he’s calling it the European tour rather than towing the line and calling it the dp world tour, bit of annoyance I’d say.

Have to be honest, if the LIV players did get picked for the RC I’m not sure I could cheer them on. It’s why I struggle to support England in the football, most of the players are rivals every week and I can’t switch that off!

I totally agree with Westwood here. Why should they kick off and expel players just for playing in another tour? It's nonsense.

On the flipside, I do hope we're not still needing players like Westwood and Poulter at the next Ryder as that would be a sad inditement of the lack of European talent coming through, but that's another issue.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Still on the fence for this whole thing, time will tell I guess

However I’m liking the info on how the caddies are being treated at an LIV event, seems long overdue change for the better (assuming they are OK with the source of the cash that paid for the hotels/flights etc)
Travel, food and accommodation taken care of means unlike pgat/et events where plenty of them go home out of pocket if the player doesn’t make the cut, at least they are being looked after (& even paid extra if they mic up)

Aside from the funding it’d be a brave person to say that aspect isn’t a big positive (& fully deserved) ... or have I been 'washed'

I’m struggling to understand why caddies should be given money from a tour ?

They aren’t employed by the tour , they are employed by the golfer so will be paid by the golfer. It’s self employment at the end of the day

Also the majority of the caddies have their own sponsorship deals etc

But LIV paying them is just the same as giving the golfers money regardless of performance - it’s like being paid to do a job regardless of how the person performs.

 

[Ethan]

I totally agree with Westwood here. Why they should kick off and expel players just for playing in another tour? It's nonsense.

On the flipside, I do hope we're not still needing players like Westwood and Poulter at the next Ryder as that would be a sad inditement of the lack of European talent coming through, but that's another issue.

Nobody can say they they weren't explicitly warned that they would be banned and become ineligible for the Ryder Cup if they put a tee in the ground at LIV.

If we need Westwood and Poulter at the next RC, we have already badly lost it.

 

[Orikoru]

Nobody can say they they weren't explicitly warned that they would be banned and become ineligible for the Ryder Cup if they put a tee in the ground at LIV.

If we need Westwood and Poulter at the next RC, we have already badly lost it.

That doesn't really explain why though? It does look like the existing tours throwing the toys out of the pram at a bit of competition to me.

And yeah, agreed on that - although, not sure what sort of a Ryder Cup it will be without DJ, Koepka and others either. I still think they might relax the rules at some point to allow both sides to have their best line-ups, otherwise it will be a bit of a wash-out year for it.

 

[Foxholer]

I’m struggling to understand why caddies should be given money from a tour ?

They aren’t employed by the tour , they are employed by the golfer so will be paid by the golfer. It’s self employment at the end of the day

Also the majority of the caddies have their own sponsorship deals etc

But LIV paying them is just the same as giving the golfers money regardless of performance - it’s like being paid to do a job regardless of how the person performs.

Might be another indication/way to hide that the players aren't actually getting the 'prize money'. Or simply (more likely) to avoid paying the normal 10% negotiated on TPGA/DPWT events. $475K for CS's man down to $12K for last place bag seems a bit seems excessive and out of proportion! Makes sense to have a reasonable, but not excessive amount paid - and by organisers. Players a welcome to 'tip' as they are anywhere - provided they actually get/have got payment from LIV.

 

[Beezerk]

Employees get a better wage and some people still try to find a negative in it.
Unbelievable Jeff ?

 

[r0wly86]

Employees get a better wage and some people still try to find a negative in it.
Unbelievable Jeff ?

They aren't employees of the tour, they are self employed people contracting individually with the professional golfers.

Not to knock it, just don't see why it is the responsibility of the tour, the caddies should be negotiating with the golfers to get travel and expenses etc.

It would be like a self employed carpenter having a contract with a building company to do some carpentry work, but then building owners giving them food and travel. Doesn't make much sense

 

[Beezerk]

They aren't employees of the tour, they are self employed people contracting individually with the professional golfers.

Not to knock it, just don't see why it is the responsibility of the tour, the caddies should be negotiating with the golfers to get travel and expenses etc.

It would be like a self employed carpenter having a contract with a building company to do some carpentry work, but then building owners giving them food and travel. Doesn't make much sense

Makes perfect sense, someone looking after the “small man” for a change.
Employed or self employed it doesn’t really matter to me, I just find it incredible that people are trying to find fault with someone getting a payrise.
By your logic the caddies should be sat outside the clubhouse in the rain while the pros sip champagne inside ?

 

[r0wly86]

Makes perfect sense, someone looking after the “small man” for a change.
Employed or self employed it doesn’t really matter to me, I just find it incredible that people are trying to find fault with someone getting a payrise.
By your logic the caddies should be sat outside the clubhouse in the rain while the pros sip champagne inside ?

Not at all, I don't knock it at all. Just doesn't follow standard employment law practices that is all

 

[Beezerk]

Not at all, I don't knock it at all. Just doesn't follow standard employment law practices that is all

Does it have to?

 

[pokerjoke]

I’m struggling to understand why caddies should be given money from a tour ?

They aren’t employed by the tour , they are employed by the golfer so will be paid by the golfer. It’s self employment at the end of the day

Also the majority of the caddies have their own sponsorship deals etc

But LIV paying them is just the same as giving the golfers money regardless of performance - it’s like being paid to do a job regardless of how the person performs.

Are the players that have gone to Liv employed by the PGA tour?
The tour are treating them like they are,aren’t they?
I’m sure they are all self employed and can play on any tour world wide,not Liv though.

 

[BiMGuy]

Are the players that have gone to Liv employed by the PGA tour?
The tour are treating them like they are,aren’t they?
I’m sure they are all self employed and can play on any tour world wide,not Liv though.

That’s not really how being self employed works.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

That’s not really how being self employed works.

The PGA tour also controls who are members of that tour

They can play on any tour they are a member off - in this case the PGA tour have revoked their membership

So the players can play where they like providing they adhere to the rules of that tour

 

[Deleted member 1147]

Are the players that have gone to Liv employed by the PGA tour?
The tour are treating them like they are,aren’t they?
I’m sure they are all self employed and can play on any tour world wide,not Liv though.

They are independent contractors. Who have signed contracts to abide by PGA tour rules.
One of the rules they are breaching, by playing on the LIV tour, is playing on another tour largely/mainly staged in North America. Or so I have been led to understand.

 

[Foxholer]

They aren't employees of the tour, they are self employed people contracting individually with the professional golfers.

Not to knock it, just don't see why it is the responsibility of the tour, the caddies should be negotiating with the golfers to get travel and expenses etc.

It would be like a self employed carpenter having a contract with a building company to do some carpentry work, but then building owners giving them food and travel. Doesn't make much sense

I's not 'the responsibility of the tour' though. They seem to simply be seeing an inequity for caddies, either/both between those of winner vs 54th's, or the actual amount compared to normal Tour caddies - even for the 54th's.
So a reasonable, if likely higher than normal/to be expected, amount can simply be paid directly. And, as I posted, players can tip extra if they feel obliged.
I'm sure the Westwood family is happy to have 'regular' income!

 

[GB72]

They aren't employees of the tour, they are self employed people contracting individually with the professional golfers.

Not to knock it, just don't see why it is the responsibility of the tour, the caddies should be negotiating with the golfers to get travel and expenses etc.

It would be like a self employed carpenter having a contract with a building company to do some carpentry work, but then building owners giving them food and travel. Doesn't make much sense

Not sur how much it is relevant but when my wife was a contractor she woudl normally have food and hotel costs included for any job that involved working away from home for any period of time. Was not unusual for her. For longer term contracts, she would set her rates accordingly if she was to be living away from home Monday-Friday for a number of weeks or monhts but certainly she would look for the company she was contracted to provide a daily allowance for food and accomodation if it was a 3 day job as we have here.

 

[Foxholer]

Not sur how much it is relevant but when my wife was a contractor she woudl normally have food and hotel costs included for any job that involved working away from home for any period of time. Was not unusual for her. For longer term contracts, she would set her rates accordingly if she was to be living away from home Monday-Friday for a number of weeks or monhts but certainly she would look for the company she was contracted to provide a daily allowance for food and accomodation if it was a 3 day job as we have here.

Indeed, as a contractor, my rate was set irrespective of where I worked, with accommodation generally arranged/paid for by the client and meals either included or at 'staff' allowance rates.