Ruling Please

[JohnnyDee]

Hypothetical situation

I'm in fluffy rough with ball sitting up and I take my stance and address it by hovering the club head just behind the ball as I'm mindful that laying it directly behind may disturb the grass and cause the ball to move. I start my swing and on the downswing the ball moves slightly. I continue my stroke and play the shot.

I assume that although the ball didn't move at address I still have incurred a penalty as I am deemed to have somehow caused it to move before completing my stroke?

 

[delc]

Hypothetical situation

I'm in fluffy rough with ball sitting up and I take my stance and address it by hovering the club head just behind the ball as I'm mindful that laying it directly behind may disturb the grass and cause the ball to move. I start my swing and on the downswing the ball moves slightly. I continue my stroke and play the shot.

I assume that although the ball didn't move at address I still have incurred a penalty as I am deemed to have somehow caused it to move before completing my stroke?

Once you have started your stroke, including the backswing, there is no penalty. Rule 18-2.

 

[palindromicbob]

Penalty one stroke but as it happened during the stroke there is no requirement to replace the ball. 18-2.

Had you checked your swing then you are required to replace the ball before recommencing. Still under penalty of one stroke.

To call this one on yourself in a club round shows great integrity.

 

[palindromicbob]

Once you have started your stroke, including the backswing, there is no penalty. Rule 18-2.

Where you getting that from Delc? The only change to the rule relating to what happens during the stroke is that there is no requirement to replace the ball but the penalty still stands because the player moved the ball.

Unless there is strong evidence to suggest that the player was not responsible for the movement, (fulfilling the known or virtually certain requirement) then the penalty stands.

a. General
Except as permitted by the Rules, when a player's ball is in play, if:
(i) the player, his partner or either of their caddies:
lifts or moves the ball,*
touches it purposely (except with a club in the act of addressing the ball), or*
causes the ball to move, or
(ii) the equipment of the player or his partner causes the ball to move,
the player incurs a penalty of one stroke.

If the ball is moved, it must be replaced, unless the movement of the ball occurs after the player has begun the stroke or the backward movement of the club for the stroke and the stroke is made.

Under the Rules there is no penalty if a player accidentally causes his ball to move in the following circumstances:
In searching for a ball covered by*sand, in the replacement of*loose impediments moved in a*hazard while finding or identifying a ball,*in probing for a ball lying in water in*a*water hazard or in searching for a ball in an*obstruction or an*abnormal ground condition -*Rule 12-1
In repairing a hole plug or ball mark -*Rule 16-1c
In measuring -*Rule 18-6
In lifting a ball under a*Rule - Rule 20-1
In placing or replacing a ball under a Rule - Rule 20-3a
In removing a loose impediment on the putting green -*Rule 23-1
In removing movable obstructions -*Rule 24-1

The bit in bold shows the exception to the rule. During a stroke is not one of them.

 

[delc]

Where you getting that from Delc? The only change to the rule relating to what happens during the stroke is that there is no requirement to replace the ball but the penalty still stands because the player moved the ball.

Unless there is strong evidence to suggest that the player was not responsible for the movement, (fulfilling the known or virtually certain requirement) then the penalty stands.



The bit in bold shows the exception to the rule. During a stroke is not one of them.

Yes you are quite right, although the 18-2b exception still applies.

 

[palindromicbob]

Yes you are quite right, although the 18-2b exception still applies.

But given the info from the OP the penalty still applies unless it is know or virtually certain that the player did not cause the ball to move.

The stage of a stroke has no impact at all on the application of the penalty. It dictates a change in the required action resulting from a moved ball.

Anyway this is a moot point because given the OP example he made the stroke without addressing the ball so really 18-2b doesn't apply.

 

[MashieNiblick]

What about Rule 14-5 - Playing Moving Ball

A player must not make a stroke at his ball while it is moving.
Exceptions:
Ball falling off tee – Rule 11-3
Striking the ball more than once – Rule 14-4
Ball moving in water – Rule 14-6
When the ball begins to move only after the player has begun the stroke or the backward movement of his club for the stroke, he incurs no penalty under this Rule for playing a moving ball, but he is not exempt from any penalty under the following Rules:
Ball at rest moved by player – Rule 18-2a
Ball at rest moving after address – Rule 18-2b
(Ball purposely deflected or stopped by player, partner or caddie – see Rule 1-2)

As I read it the player didn't move the ball and if the club wasn't "grounded" then the ball wasn't addressed so I don't think there is any penalty under Rule 18-2a or b.

I'm sure Duncan/Rulefan/Colin can clarify.

 

[JohnnyDee]

Gents (or assuming you are all indeed gents that have posted) You are confirming what I already know...that the interpretation of the rules is a blimmin minefield.

 

[palindromicbob]

What about Rule 14-5 - Playing Moving Ball

A player must not make a stroke at his ball while it is moving.
Exceptions:
Ball falling off tee – Rule 11-3
Striking the ball more than once – Rule 14-4
Ball moving in water – Rule 14-6
When the ball begins to move only after the player has begun the stroke or the backward movement of his club for the stroke, he incurs no penalty under this Rule for playing a moving ball, but he is not exempt from any penalty under the following Rules:
Ball at rest moved by player – Rule 18-2a
Ball at rest moving after address – Rule 18-2b
(Ball purposely deflected or stopped by player, partner or caddie – see Rule 1-2)

As I read it the player didn't move the ball and if the club wasn't "grounded" then the ball wasn't addressed so I don't think there is any penalty under Rule 18-2a or b.

I'm sure Duncan/Rulefan/Colin can clarify.

It's need to be known or virtually certain that the player hasn't caused the ball to move. If this can be satisfied then yes there is no penalty. The problem lies with being able to meet this requirement and unfortunately there isn't enough info available except a fluffy lie.

 

[MashieNiblick]

It's need to be known or virtually certain that the player hasn't caused the ball to move. If this can be satisfied then yes there is no penalty. The problem lies with being able to meet this requirement and unfortunately there isn't enough info available except a fluffy lie.

But as I read it that exception applies only to 18-2b - Ball Moving After Address, not to 18-2a. If the ball wasn't addressed 18-2b doesn't apply.

 

[duncan mackie]

Gents (or assuming you are all indeed gents that have posted) You are confirming what I already know...that the interpretation of the rules is a blimmin minefield.

Remove delc's contribution and it isn't (although you have picked one of the few extremely heavily discussed issues!

All rules that aim for equity (that's not fairness but parity across the field) will have its pinch points.

As asked the answer is relatively straightforward.

 

[palindromicbob]

But as I read it that exception applies only to 18-2b - Ball Moving After Address, not to 18-2a. If the ball wasn't addressed 18-2b doesn't apply.

If a ball moves then it is necessary to establish what moved it before applying any other rule such as 14-5.

I did say that 18-2b is a moot point, didn't even register it until Delc did. But if it is known or virtually certain that the player did not cause the ball to move then it must also be known what did cause that movement and therefore one of the other 5 rules must apply. Should have been more careful about sticking purely to the language of the applicable rule.

 

[JohnnyDee]

Remove delc's contribution and it isn't (although you have picked one of the few extremely heavily discussed issues!

All rules that aim for equity (that's not fairness but parity across the field) will have its pinch points.

As asked the answer is relatively straightforward.

It's interesting that Golf is one of the very few games where it's the player's responsibility to call their own fouls (Snooker perhaps being another)

In the case I've outlined we're dealing with the laws of physics rather than any deliberate jiggery-pokery where a player seeks to obtain an unfair advantage.

The ball exerts a force upon the (fluffy) grass which after a period of time yields to the force. The fact that the ball moves when it does (during the player's downswing) is purely in the lap of the (golfing) gods. Hence my assertion that decisions on the rules are a total minefield.

Is John Paramore on here? We could do with a word from the horse's mouth.

 

[duncan mackie]

It's interesting that Golf is one of the very few games where it's the player's responsibility to call their own fouls (Snooker perhaps being another)

No - snooker has a referee. That player's chose to call a foul upon themselves in that sport is no different from the cricketer who chooses to walk rather than leave the umpire to rule.

In the case I've outlined we're dealing with the laws of physics rather than any deliberate jiggery-pokery where a player seeks to obtain an unfair advantage.

The ball exerts a force upon the (fluffy) grass which after a period of time yields to the force. The fact that the ball moves when it does (during the player's downswing) is purely in the lap of the (golfing) gods. Hence my assertion that decisions on the rules are a total minefield.

No - you are dealing with the problem of the application of the rules without subjective judgement. As written above the issue is more about the ability of the rules to be applied objectively in as many situations as possible than it is about such application being fair in every instance. Such an approach has no relevance to any view regarding their status as a minefield.

Is John Paramore on here? We could do with a word from the horse's mouth.

No he's not - and I don't think you will find his name is spelt with an e... which word were you after anyway?

 

[Colin L]

Tidy up time?

The salient points of Johnny's description are:
He did not address the ball.
See the Definition of Addressing the Ball which requires that the club be grounded.
The ball moved.
Rule 18 2a applies, not 18-2b because he had not addressed the ball. There is no requirement to establish what caused the ball to move under 18-2a if it wasn't the player. If the player is sure he did not cause it to move, he does not have to establish what did. Johnny should have asked himself if there was any way he might have caused the ball to move. If yes, a 1 stroke penalty; if no, then no penalty.

He had begun his stroke before the ball moved. Even if he decided he had caused it to move, he would not be required to replace the ball. There is no penalty for making a stroke at ball in motion as the ball was not moving when he began the stroke. See Decision 14-5/1

As an addendum, it is different if you have addressed the ball and it then moves. Rule 18-2b then applies which tells us that you are deemed to have caused it to have moved and are penalised. For the Exception to this to apply, you would have to establish what did move it. Rule 18-2b and Decision 14-2b/1

 

[JohnnyDee]

Ah, I see, Duncan.

I had checked the spelling prior to posting and established no "E" but tricksy computer bunged one in anyway? Grrr! *Shakes fist at ipad.

Still on the bright side as he's not on here then he'll never know I've spelt his surname incorrectly.

So every cloud etc. etc...

 

[Region3]

Tidy up time?

The salient points of Johnny's description are:
He did not address the ball.
See the Definition of Addressing the Ball which requires that the club be grounded.
The ball moved.
Rule 18 2a applies, not 18-2b because he had not addressed the ball. There is no requirement to establish what caused the ball to move under 18-2a if it wasn't the player. If the player is sure he did not cause it to move, he does not have to establish what did. Johnny should have asked himself if there was any way he might have caused the ball to move. If yes, a 1 stroke penalty; if no, then no penalty.

He had begun his stroke before the ball moved. Even if he decided he had caused it to move, he would not be required to replace the ball. There is no penalty for making a stroke at ball in motion as the ball was not moving when he began the stroke. See Decision 14-5/1

As an addendum, it is different if you have addressed the ball and it then moves. Rule 18-2b then applies which tells us that you are deemed to have caused it to have moved and are penalised. For the Exception to this to apply, you would have to establish what did move it. Rule 18-2b and Decision 14-2b/1

Please help an easily confused person out.

If you've addressed the ball you have caused it to move unless there is evidence to the contrary.
If you've not addressed the ball something else has caused it to move unless there is evidence that it was you.

Is that right?

 

[Colin L]

Please help an easily confused person out.

If you've addressed the ball you have caused it to move unless there is evidence to the contrary.
If you've not addressed the ball something else has caused it to move unless there is evidence that it was you.

Is that right?

Not only right, but very neatly expressed.

 

[backwoodsman]

Please help an easily confused person out.

If you've addressed the ball you have caused it to move unless there is evidence to the contrary.
If you've not addressed the ball something else has caused it to move unless there is evidence that it was you.

Is that right?

Effectively, yes

edit: too late again..

 

[MashieNiblick]

Thanks for clarifying, Colin. Agree nicely put by Region3.