Rules question - order of play.

[Region3]

I can understand confusion between points and nett or gross scores deciding the honour, but to think that some people are adamant that equal scores rotate or you have to win a hole outright to get the honour is unreal.

 

[bladeplayer]

Honour nevers bother me in the least , if your ready , bang away . played with a prominent member one day in a club comp , i can SOMETIMES hit it a fair way so i was waiting for the group ahead to move on , he said your up there , i told him i was waiting to work away if he wanted to , he said he would to keep it moving ..
Happend a few times & all was well until the 15th tee , he was up, but was chating to member on another hole beside our tee , i teed up only to hear , oih sonny boy get down its not your honour .. when i didnt get banned out of the club for life right there and then , i never will

 

[Pro Zach]

I can understand confusion between points and nett or gross scores deciding the honour, but to think that some people are adamant that equal scores rotate or you have to win a hole outright to get the honour is unreal.

I can't understand the confusion about points and net or gross score. I don't know why people are saying it is based on points. Rule 32-1 says:- “In handicap bogey, par and Stableford competitions, the competitor with the lowest net score at a hole takes the honour at the next teeing ground.” It therefore has nothing to do with points scored.


When I played years ago someone had to win the hole outright to change the order. I don't have an old rulebook so don't know if the rule is now worded differently or if people are interpreting it differently.


I think rule 10-2 is ambiguous and could be interpreted both ways.


I would argue that in the OP the order should remain A-B-C, because nobody had the lowest score. To argue as others did that the order should be B-C-A means that B and C both had the lowest score. It is a fact that both B and C had the lowest score as a comparative to A. But neither had the lowest score as a comparative to each other. They had the same score.


Rule 10-2 says:- “The competitor with the lowest score at a hole takes the honour at the next teeing ground.”


As B and C had the same score, neither of them can have the lowest score, so neither should win the honour.

 

[Foxholer]

Rule 32-1 applies to Bogey and Stableford comps - any more questions and you will die.

And for those too lazy to look it up, here's a link to The Rules!

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-of-Golf.aspx#/rules/?ruleNum=32&subRuleNum=1

Apologies if this has already been provided, but couldn't be arsed reading through the amount of dross on this simple question and answer - though the change in 2008 probably contributed a little.

 

[Region3]

When I played years ago someone had to win the hole outright to change the order. I don't have an old rulebook so don't know if the rule is now worded differently or if people are interpreting it differently.


I think rule 10-2 is ambiguous and could be interpreted both ways.


...


Rule 10-2 says:- “The competitor with the lowest score at a hole takes the honour at the next teeing ground.”


As B and C had the same score, neither of them can have the lowest score, so neither should win the honour.

A slightly longer extract from 10-2

"The competitor with the lowest score at a hole takes the honour at the next teeing ground. The competitor with the second lowest score plays next and so on. If two or more competitors have the same score at a hole, they play from the next teeing ground in the same order as at the previous teeing ground."

I can see how it could be misinterpreted, but the words I've highlighted in bold mean to me that the players with the tied scores remain in the same order, rather than the whole group.

Otherwise you could end up with the ridiculous situation (imo) that A scores 8 on every hole, B & C score 4 on every hole, but because A was first on the draw sheet he retains the honour all the way round.

 

[North Mimms]

When playing with those who like to stick rigidly to correct order, I find it ok when playing medal as it's simple - best score has the honour.
With stableford, the trouble is that I, as player A, know if my nett score is better or worse than player B, as I am marking her card.
I will most probably know what player C has scored gross, but unless she is playing off the same hcp as either myself or player B, I won't know her net score.
This has been a problem a couple of times playing with a much lower chp player who is a stickler for the rules!


I would be very irrritated by someone who was not ready to play cos they maybe werechatting to other players, who then got all uppity if I proceeded to the tee to play ready golf.

You snooze, you lose - should be the decider!

 

[rosecott]

I can't understand the confusion about points and net or gross score. I don't know why people are saying it is based on points. Rule 32-1 says:- “In handicap bogey, par and Stableford competitions, the competitor with the lowest net score at a hole takes the honour at the next teeing ground.” It therefore has nothing to do with points scored.
.

Are you trying to cause even more confusion?

It has everything to do with points scored. When I play Stableford, the lowest nett score on a hole also scores the most points.

 

[Region3]

Are you trying to cause even more confusion?

It has everything to do with points scored. When I play Stableford, the lowest nett score on a hole also scores the most points.

I think maybe it just means that "all 0 points are not equal" ie. a 7 for 0 would take the honour over an 8 for 0, because the rule says net score rather than points.

I think.

 

[Pro Zach]

A slightly longer extract from 10-2

"The competitor with the lowest score at a hole takes the honour at the next teeing ground. The competitor with the second lowest score plays next and so on. If two or more competitors have the same score at a hole, they play from the next teeing ground in the same order as at the previous teeing ground."

I can see how it could be misinterpreted, but the words I've highlighted in bold mean to me that the players with the tied scores remain in the same order, rather than the whole group.

Otherwise you could end up with the ridiculous situation (imo) that A scores 8 on every hole, B & C score 4 on every hole, but because A was first on the draw sheet he retains the honour all the way round.

I can see and understand why you and others interpret the rule as you do. If I had just taken up golf and been told that the honour changes if there is a joint lowest score I might not question the interpretation of the rule.
I said earlier that I didn't know if the rule had changed since I last played golf. I have just looked it up and the rule was the same in the 1992 rules. I played golf for 7 years in the nineties and never did anyone suggest that the honour should change if more than one player had the lowest score.


I don't know how or why it happened but it now seems the same rule is interpreted differently.


I don't think the sentence you highlighted is supposed to apply unless one competitor has the lowest score. I would highlight "The competitor with the lowest score at a hole takes the honour.” Not until a competitor(singular) has the lowest score does the rest apply.


Obviously I could be wrong. We would have to ask whoever made the rule what they meant to happen, to be certain.


But there must be people on here who have played throughout that period? Does anyone know when or why it changed?

 

[Region3]

Maybe someone who has Sky will notice watching a tour event.

Example, order is Rory, Tiger, Luke. Luke and Tiger make 4, Rory makes 5. See who tees off first next hole

 

[Pro Zach]

Are you trying to cause even more confusion?

It has everything to do with points scored. When I play Stableford, the lowest nett score on a hole also scores the most points.

No, I am trying to stop the confusion caused by people insisting it has everything to do with points, when the rules say it is based on nett score.


According to the rules, if player A has a nett 8 and B and C have nett 9 then A has the honour, although nobody scored any points.

 

[rosecott]

No, I am trying to stop the confusion caused by people insisting it has everything to do with points, when the rules say it is based on nett score.


According to the rules, if player A has a nett 8 and B and C have nett 9 then A has the honour, although nobody scored any points.

In the interests of sanity and the eradication of slow play, I would have expected that all of them picked up without holing out as they couldn't score points. The order of teeing off would therefore remain unchanged from the previous tee.

 

[bobmac]

52 posts (so far) to decide whos turn it is to play first in a s/ford?
I'm pleased I'm not playing behind you lot.

 

[Imurg]

I agree.
Unless it's Matchplay, I can't see that it really matters who goes first...

 

[rosecott]

52 posts (so far) to decide whos turn it is to play first in a s/ford?
I'm pleased I'm not playing behind you lot.

Take the positives, Bob.

The longer we stay on here spouting drivel and wasting the best days of our lives, the less chance there is of us clogging up the tees, fairways and greens.

 

[North Mimms]

Why isn't there a "like" button for posts like these!

 

[bobmac]

Why isn't there a "like" button for posts like these!

Just cut and paste it to your FB page and then you can 'Like it' there.

There was a way of rating the whole thread at the top where it says 'Rate this thread'

 

[MashieNiblick]

A slightly longer extract from 10-2

"The competitor with the lowest score at a hole takes the honour at the next teeing ground. The competitor with the second lowest score plays next and so on. If two or more competitors have the same score at a hole, they play from the next teeing ground in the same order as at the previous teeing ground."

I can see how it could be misinterpreted, but the words I've highlighted in bold mean to me that the players with the tied scores remain in the same order, rather than the whole group.

Otherwise you could end up with the ridiculous situation (imo) that A scores 8 on every hole, B & C score 4 on every hole, but because A was first on the draw sheet he retains the honour all the way round.

I can see and understand why you and others interpret the rule as you do. If I had just taken up golf and been told that the honour changes if there is a joint lowest score I might not question the interpretation of the rule.
I said earlier that I didn't know if the rule had changed since I last played golf. I have just looked it up and the rule was the same in the 1992 rules. I played golf for 7 years in the nineties and never did anyone suggest that the honour should change if more than one player had the lowest score.


I don't know how or why it happened but it now seems the same rule is interpreted differently.


I don't think the sentence you highlighted is supposed to apply unless one competitor has the lowest score. I would highlight "The competitor with the lowest score at a hole takes the honour.” Not until a competitor(singular) has the lowest score does the rest apply.


Obviously I could be wrong. We would have to ask whoever made the rule what they meant to happen, to be certain.


But there must be people on here who have played throughout that period? Does anyone know when or why it changed?

Region3's interpretation is correct as confirmed by the FAQs for this Rule on the R&A website:

"1. In a handicap stroke play competition, how is the honour determined?

The honour is determined according to the gross scores at each individual hole. For example: A, B and C are playing in a group and the order of play on the 1st tee is A, B ,C. On the 1st hole A scores 6, B scores 5 and C scores 5. The order of play on the 2nd tee is B then C then A."

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-of-Golf.aspx#/rules/?ruleNum=10&subRuleNum=2

I don't think this has ever been different. In all the 40 years I have been playing the situation has always been as set out there, i.e. that if 2 players tie they take the honour over higher scoring players and, between them, tee off in the order they tee'd off on the last hole. As far as I am aware the interpretation of this rule has never changed in that time. Otherwise as Region says you could have a situation where the player with the highest score has the honour which is the opposite of what the Rule says.

 

[williamalex1]

Maybe someone who has Sky will notice watching a tour event.

Example, order is Rory, Tiger, Luke. Luke and Tiger make 4, Rory makes 5. See who tees off first next hole

whoever was second on the last tee would have the honour and rory would be last, in the old system the order would stay as it was

 

[duncan mackie]

I don't think this has ever been different. In all the 40 years I have been playing the situation has always been as set out there, i.e. that if 2 players tie they take the honour over higher scoring players and, between them, tee off in the order they tee'd off on the last hole. As far as I am aware the interpretation of this rule has never changed in that time.

the honour in stroke play first entered the Rules of Golf in the 1908 rules edition (to come into force from 1.1.1909) under rule 1 of the Special Rules for Stroke Play Competitions section.

nothing changed until the 2008 rules edition which added the exception to rule 10-2 referencing 32-1 in relation to the honour in handicap bogey, par and Stableford competitions.

32-1 states "In handicap bogey, par and Stableford competitions, the competitor with the lowest net score at a hole takes the honour at the next teeing ground."

it makes absolutely no reference to stableford points