Rules for immigrants

[Sweep]

Following on from the thread on the Berlin attack where I suggested that an immigrant who committed a crime should expect to be deported back to their home country. Whilst I still maintain this view, it did set me thinking, am I being "anti immigrant"?
For example, as I cannot be deported from the UK, should an immigrant in the U.K. who can, be subjected to another level of "punishment" if we both committed the same crime?
Should we accept immigrants as people who come to live in our "community" and expect them to at least respect our laws and way of life - a " my house, my rules" outlook or should we take less of a community view and see the UK not as our country but more an area of land, suitable for human habitation?
Does the feeling of belonging in a nation matter?
Are we a community?
Is it right to expect certain levels of behaviour from newcomers otherwise we don't want them amongst us?
Is national identity important? Should it be protected?
Does it matter that your parents, grandparents etc paid in, worked and built up a country and fought for a way of life and does immigration dilute that?
Does how you would be treated if you went to live in their country colour your view on how immigrants should be treated in the U.K.?
Does even thinking about this make you feel a little bit racist? If so, do you resent being made to feel this way?

I suspect these are uncomfortable - but nonetheless important questions and how you answer them may form your views on immigration as a whole.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Some interesting points and some countries are much more accomodating than others. Wonder what the response would be if you wanted to build a Christian church in the centre of Riyadh for example (maybe already one there, just saying as an example) or buy pork sausages in the local butcher?

Is it a crime or 'wrong' to protect our own country and way of life? Some liberals (PC brigade) make out it is, those that think it is OK are often chastised for being 'rascist'

Personally, I think the ' when in Rome' attitude is the right one. If people want to come and live here then I would expect them to integrate into our society and adopt our values not change this country into the one they have left behind.

 

[IanM]

You know what the response would be.....at best "unpleasant" and at worst, fatal.

That doesn't mean that we should stoop to that level of intolerance. Mind you, there's an active minority of some groups taking big advantage of the tolerance in the UK.

 

[sawtooth]

Following on from the thread on the Berlin attack where I suggested that an immigrant who committed a crime should expect to be deported back to their home country. Whilst I still maintain this view, it did set me thinking, am I being "anti immigrant"?

No.


For example, as I cannot be deported from the UK, should an immigrant in the U.K. who can, be subjected to another level of "punishment" if we both committed the same crime?

It depends on the crime and frequency of crime. No we should not deport immigrants for dropping litter, but if found guilty of serial rapes? then yes please get rid.

Should we accept immigrants as people who come to live in our "community" and expect them to at least respect our laws and way of life - a " my house, my rules" outlook

Yes, when in Rome and all that.

or should we take less of a community view and see the UK not as our country but more an area of land, suitable for human habitation?

To some degree yes but not the extent where we lose our heritage and identity.


Does the feeling of belonging in a nation matter?

Yes

Are we a community?

Yes we are a very tolerant multi cultural nation

Is it right to expect certain levels of behaviour from newcomers otherwise we don't want them amongst us?

Yes I don't want immigrant criminals any less than the indigenous criminals that we already have.

Is national identity important?

Yes

Should it be protected?

Yes

Does it matter that your parents, grandparents etc paid in, worked and built up a country and fought for a way of life and does immigration dilute that?

It depends on what percentage of immigrants come here as peace loving, hard working, honest individuals. Good immigrants add to the system where as bad immigrants take from it.

Does how you would be treated if you went to live in their country colour your view on how immigrants should be treated in the U.K.?

No not really. I would fully expect to respect the laws of the land when travelling and living abroad even if I didn't agree with them.

Does even thinking about this make you feel a little bit racist?

No I wouldn't call any of this racism.

If so, do you resent being made to feel this way?

N/A

I suspect these are uncomfortable - but nonetheless important questions and how you answer them may form your views on immigration as a whole.

Happy for immigrants to come here to work and contribute but in my view we ought to be selective about who comes.

People with serious crime convictions,
a long record of petty crime or
with links to terrorist/extreme groups - no thank you.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

When you say Parents, Grandparents etc paid in, what if they were immigrants and without them we wouldn't of had this Country built up or fought for, how long is it before you or me is no longer an immigrant, 1, 2, 3 etc generations?

We all see things differently, some of your post is spot on and some of it makes it uncomfortable reading to me.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Following on from the thread on the Berlin attack where I suggested that an immigrant who committed a crime should expect to be deported back to their home country. Whilst I still maintain this view, it did set me thinking, am I being "anti immigrant"?

No.


For example, as I cannot be deported from the UK, should an immigrant in the U.K. who can, be subjected to another level of "punishment" if we both committed the same crime?

It depends on the crime and frequency of crime. No we should not deport immigrants for dropping litter, but if found guilty of serial rapes? then yes please get rid.

Should we accept immigrants as people who come to live in our "community" and expect them to at least respect our laws and way of life - a " my house, my rules" outlook

Yes, when in Rome and all that.

or should we take less of a community view and see the UK not as our country but more an area of land, suitable for human habitation?

To some degree yes but not the extent where we lose our heritage and identity.


Does the feeling of belonging in a nation matter?

Yes

Are we a community?

Yes we are a very tolerant multi cultural nation

Is it right to expect certain levels of behaviour from newcomers otherwise we don't want them amongst us?

Yes I don't want immigrant criminals any less than the indigenous criminals that we already have.

Is national identity important?

Yes

Should it be protected?

Yes

Does it matter that your parents, grandparents etc paid in, worked and built up a country and fought for a way of life and does immigration dilute that?

It depends on what percentage of immigrants come here as peace loving, hard working, honest individuals. Good immigrants add to the system where as bad immigrants take from it.

Does how you would be treated if you went to live in their country colour your view on how immigrants should be treated in the U.K.?

No not really. I would fully expect to respect the laws of the land when travelling and living abroad even if I didn't agree with them.

Does even thinking about this make you feel a little bit racist?

No I wouldn't call any of this racism.

If so, do you resent being made to feel this way?

N/A

I suspect these are uncomfortable - but nonetheless important questions and how you answer them may form your views on immigration as a whole.

Happy for immigrants to come here to work and contribute but in my view we ought to be selective about who comes.

People with serious crime convictions,
a long record of petty crime or
with links to terrorist/extreme groups - no thank you.

Sean...for your Xmas present I would like to give you a nail and a hammer to hit it on the head with :thup:

 

[USER1999]

Surely if some one wants to immigrate to this country, it is because of the culture we have made here. As a result, i would expect them to conform to it, or they have chosen the wrong country, and should move on.

 

[Sweep]

When you say Parents, Grandparents etc paid in, what if they were immigrants and without them we wouldn't of had this Country built up or fought for, how long is it before you or me is no longer an immigrant, 1, 2, 3 etc generations?

We all see things differently, some of your post is spot on and some of it makes it uncomfortable reading to me.

When I mentioned parents, grandparents etc I was really referring to pre 1950's when immigration levels were a small percentage of those of today. However, you make a good point. When does an immigrant stop being an immigrant and become "one of us"? Will they always be "comers- in"? What about their offspring? Does it matter where you are born or is it more about heritage and values?

 

[User20205]

Is there not a distinction to be made between an immigrant and asylum seeker? Are most of the internal terrorism cases asylum seekers and products of 2/3 generation immigration? You can't deport a bona fide asylum seeker & can't deport a 2/3 generation immigrant. The best checks & measures should be in place, but it's rarely as clear cut as this thread suggests.

 

[Sweep]

Is there not a distinction to be made between an immigrant and asylum seeker? Are most of the internal terrorism cases asylum seekers and products of 2/3 generation immigration? You can't deport a bona fide asylum seeker & can't deport a 2/3 generation immigrant. The best checks & measures should be in place, but it's rarely as clear cut as this thread suggests.

Is it acceptable for a genuine asylum seeker to commit crime in a country that has taken them in? Should they be viewed differently?
2nd or 3rd generation immigrant goes back to the question of when does an immigrant stop being an immigrant.

 

[Foxholer]

Following on from the thread on the Berlin attack where I suggested that an immigrant who committed a crime should expect to be deported back to their home country. Whilst I still maintain this view, it did set me thinking, am I being "anti immigrant"?
...

The ability to do this is already enshrined in UK law (Immigration Act 1971)!

Extracted from an ad by an Immigration Lawyers site....
Grounds For Deportation Of Convicted Criminals UK

A person may be deported if they are not a British Citizen, and have been convicted of a criminal offence.

A foreign national can also be deported under s3(6) of the Immigration Act 1971 if a criminal court makes a ‘recommendation’ that he or she should be as part of its sentence.

Under section 3(5) (a) of the Immigration Act 1971, a foreign national may also be deported if the Secretary of State has decided that deportation would be beneficial to public good.

Under UK immigration law (s32 UK Borders Act 2007) a foreign national may be subject to ‘automatic deportation’ if he or she has been convicted of an offence in the UK, and sentenced to a period of imprisonment of 12 months or more. This is because their deportation is automatically considered to be beneficial to public good.

Exemptions From UK Deportation

You are exempt from deportation from the UK if you fall under one of the following exclusions:

You are a British Citizen;
You are a citizen of the Commonwealth who was ordinarily resident in the UK on 01/01/1973, or if you have a right of abode;
Prior to the offence, you have continuously lived in the UK for 5 years or more.
In order to rely on one of these exclusions you will have to be able to provide evidence.

Our top UK immigration solicitors can provide you with expert legal advice and support throughout the legal process, and select the best route possible for you to challenge you or your loved one’s deportation order.

Challenging UK Deportation

If you are liable to deportation, there are a number of grounds on which you may challenge it if the above exclusions do not apply to you. You may want to appeal the decision, or seek Judicial Review. If you succeed on the basis of one of these grounds, you may no longer be deported from the UK:

Under UK human rights law, if on returning to your country of origin you would be at real risk or harm. Your family members may also be able to rely on human rights if deportation is going to take place. Examples of human rights exceptions include claims under Article 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights: which is if you would be subject to torture, inhumane or degrading treatment on return to your home country;

If removal would breach the United Kingdom’s obligations under the UN Convention on the Status of Refugees 1951;
If you have lived in the UK for a long time and/or if you were deported would be separated from your family;
If you are to serve your sentence in a psychiatric institute under the Mental Health Act 1983 (as amended), or if you are facing extradition;
If you have strong ties to the UK. The stronger these ties are, the less standing the UK Border Agency has for deporting you;
If you were under the age of 18 at the time of your conviction. Deportation of minors requires very serious grounds;
If you are a European Economic Area (EEA) National. If so your rights may be breached on deportation, and thus these protections make it harder for the UK Border Agency to deport you from the UK.

...

 

[User20205]

Is it acceptable for a genuine asylum seeker to commit crime in a country that has taken them in? Should they be viewed differently?
2nd or 3rd generation immigrant goes back to the question of when does an immigrant stop being an immigrant.

No it's not acceptable for anyone to commit a crime, specifics aside, asylum seeker or not. We have a legal framework to deal with that. If they are illegally here the deportation should be part of the legal process, after the appropriate punishment has been levied here. You can't deport a genuine asylum seeker. The checks in place to evaluate that asylum claim are another discussion.

Slightly confused about your second point, are you implying that someone born in the U.K. from an immigrant background, has less rights than you or I?

 

[Tashyboy]

Following on from the thread on the Berlin attack where I suggested that an immigrant who committed a crime should expect to be deported back to their home country. Whilst I still maintain this view, it did set me thinking, am I being "anti immigrant"?

No.


For example, as I cannot be deported from the UK, should an immigrant in the U.K. who can, be subjected to another level of "punishment" if we both committed the same crime?

It depends on the crime and frequency of crime. No we should not deport immigrants for dropping litter, but if found guilty of serial rapes? then yes please get rid.

Should we accept immigrants as people who come to live in our "community" and expect them to at least respect our laws and way of life - a " my house, my rules" outlook

Yes, when in Rome and all that.

or should we take less of a community view and see the UK not as our country but more an area of land, suitable for human habitation?

To some degree yes but not the extent where we lose our heritage and identity.


Does the feeling of belonging in a nation matter?

Yes

Are we a community?

Yes we are a very tolerant multi cultural nation

Is it right to expect certain levels of behaviour from newcomers otherwise we don't want them amongst us?

Yes I don't want immigrant criminals any less than the indigenous criminals that we already have.

Is national identity important?

Yes

Should it be protected?

Yes

Does it matter that your parents, grandparents etc paid in, worked and built up a country and fought for a way of life and does immigration dilute that?

It depends on what percentage of immigrants come here as peace loving, hard working, honest individuals. Good immigrants add to the system where as bad immigrants take from it.

Does how you would be treated if you went to live in their country colour your view on how immigrants should be treated in the U.K.?

No not really. I would fully expect to respect the laws of the land when travelling and living abroad even if I didn't agree with them.

Does even thinking about this make you feel a little bit racist?

No I wouldn't call any of this racism.

If so, do you resent being made to feel this way?

N/A

I suspect these are uncomfortable - but nonetheless important questions and how you answer them may form your views on immigration as a whole.

Happy for immigrants to come here to work and contribute but in my view we ought to be selective about who comes.

People with serious crime convictions,
a long record of petty crime or
with links to terrorist/extreme groups - no thank you.

As good a thread as I have read all year.

 

[Sweep]

Slightly confused about your second point, are you implying that someone born in the U.K. from an immigrant background, has less rights than you or I?

I am not suggesting anything. I am simply asking the question. It's about how we view immigrants and our attitude to them.

 

[Tashyboy]

Is there not a distinction to be made between an immigrant and asylum seeker? Are most of the internal terrorism cases asylum seekers and products of 2/3 generation immigration? You can't deport a bona fide asylum seeker & can't deport a 2/3 generation immigrant. The best checks & measures should be in place, but it's rarely as clear cut as this thread suggests.

The problem is rod as the Germans have now found out due to Angela's open door policy, is that about 160,000 asylum seeker/ immigrants have been denied citizenship. Guess what, they don't know how to get them back " home" and now don't know where some of them are. It's was ok to have an open door policy according to Angela, the problem was that the door was open to anyone and everyone from bona fida migrants, asylum seekers, victimised and persecuted, to the criminals and terrorists. Another problem is that once said migrants are in the EU, it is an open borders. It is that open borders policy that allowed that Berlin murderer to gain access to Italy/Milan without having to show any ID. Which ironically as an EU citizen I would have to if I travelled to Italy or anywhere else in the EU for that matter.

 

[Sweep]

The ability to do this is already enshrined in UK law (Immigration Act 1971)!...

I understand that but is it right and do we (and others) use it enough? Just asking. I guess sometimes it's good to examine your own views on issues

 

[User20205]

I am not suggesting anything. I am simply asking the question. It's about how we view immigrants and our attitude to them.

Fair enough. everyone will have their own definition. I'd go for classed as non British until a successful application for citizenship has been made. Birth in this country automatically grants citizenship irrespective of background. There will be particular cases that are more complicated than this & asylum is a different matter.
To answer the original point, yes if you're non British and commit a crime that has a custodial sentence as part of the punishment, then repatriation should be considered.

However, in the Berlin case (pls correct me if I'm wrong) the fella was a failed asylum seeker that couldn't be deported as there was no official record of where he was from. The Paris attacks came from a domestic source as did the 7/7 bombings. None would have been prevented by deportation.

The only case that I can think of that would have been was the murder of that girl in London a few years ago by a Latvian convicted criminal. That's where the checks and processes fell down & again he wasn't an immigrant, but a European citizen, with the benefits that go with that.

 

[User20205]

The problem is rod as the Germans have now found out due to Angela's open door policy, is that about 160,000 asylum seeker/ immigrants have been denied citizenship. Guess what, they don't know how to get them back " home" and now don't know where some of them are. It's was ok to have an open door policy according to Angela, the problem was that the door was open to anyone and everyone from bona fida migrants, asylum seekers, victimised and persecuted, to the criminals and terrorists. Another problem is that once said migrants are in the EU, it is an open borders. It is that open borders policy that allowed that Berlin murderer to gain access to Italy/Milan without having to show any ID. Which ironically as an EU citizen I would have to if I travelled to Italy or anywhere else in the EU for that matter.

Agree it's a nonsense to import criminals & the German asylum policy does run the risk of changing the fabric of that society, but it hasn't been done for altruistic reasons. If you accept asylum is necessary, how do you stop it being abused? & where do you send those that are seemingly stateless?

 

[drdel]

Anyone who is hear legally is entitled to be treated equitably.

That said we do need to think carefully about our immigration policy and how the failure to integrate changes the fabric of our society and generates its own intolerance.

 

[Hobbit]

Anyone who is hear legally is entitled to be treated equitably.

That said we do need to think carefully about our immigration policy and how the failure to integrate changes the fabric of our society and generates its own intolerance.

I don't think failure to integrate changes the fabric of our society. Maybe it leads to two separate societies.