Rules evening!

[chrisd]

Yesterday we had a rules evening and the question was asked

In the winter, on our soggy fairways, if, say, 4 of us see a tee shot go off and clearly see that it was coming down on the fairway, and we get to the point where the ball should be and it can't be found as is plugged too deep, can we have a free drop where we saw the ball come down?

The answer was - if you are "virtually certain" that the ball has plugged and all the players agree then YES you may take a free drop.

When I talked it over I asked how that would apply to the long boomer hitters who go 300 yards +. How would you know for "virtual certainty" the location to free drop it compared to say a 200 hitter. I didn't get a straight answer. No mention was made of casual water in the question or answer

Any thoughts guys?

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

Yesterday we had a rules evening and the question was asked

In the winter, on our soggy fairways, if, say, 4 of us see a tee shot go off and clearly see that it was coming down on the fairway, and we get to the point where the ball should be and it can't be found as is plugged too deep, can we have a free drop where we saw the ball come down?

The answer was - if you are "virtually certain" that the ball has plugged and all the players agree then YES you may take a free drop.

When I talked it over I asked how that would apply to the long boomer hitters who go 300 yards +. How would you know for "virtual certainty" the location to free drop it compared to say a 200 hitter. I didn't get a straight answer. No mention was made of casual water in the question or answer

Any thoughts guys?

Would be interested to see how "you" (royal you) could justify virtually certain from even 200 yards. Let alone if it's longer/a grey day/hills in the way etc

 

[chrisd]

Would be interested to see how "you" (royal you) could justify virtually certain from even 200 yards. Let alone if it's longer/a grey day/hills in the way etc

I did say that too!

 

[rulefan]

can we have a free drop where we saw the ball come down?

No. Even if you said please.

 

[chrisd]

No. Even if you said please.

He definitely said that you can under virtual certainty, I'd like to message my club and give them chapter and verse on this

 

[duncan mackie]

He definitely said that you can under virtual certainty, I'd like to message my club and give them chapter and verse on this

Chris - you are back in the area which says you should ask them under which rule they believe you are able to do this. It's only from there that you can take things forward!

Just to explain the logic side of things a little more (in anticipation); Rule 25 covers 3 things, but they are not all handled the same way!
25-1 covers AGC and, under that rule, you may have relief from a ball lost in such situations subject to virtual certainty considerations. This we have covered before.
25-2 covers a ball plugged/embedded in it's own pitch mark on/in closely mown areas of the course (extended TTG by the appropriate LR and including the teeing ground in equity by the relevant decision). There is no question of virtual certainty; the ball either is, or isn't embedded in an area from which relief is, or isn't available under the rule.
25-3 covers wrong putting greens and again, VC doesn't come into it.

 

[chrisd]

Chris - you are back in the area which says you should ask them under which rule they believe you are able to do this. It's only from there that you can take things forward!

I see that Duncan but it was a Kent rules official and was adamant. Problem was that the question was asked by some swindle members and I'm really concerned that half of the club will play this way all the winter. I just am perplexed as to the way to move on it

 

[duncan mackie]

I see that Duncan but it was a Kent rules official and was adamant. Problem was that the question was asked by some swindle members and I'm really concerned that half of the club will play this way all the winter. I just am perplexed as to the way to move on it

maybe the above edit will help you take it forward....adamant is only a state of mind unless you are in authority and making a ruling at the time!

 

[chrisd]

maybe the above edit will help you take it forward....adamant is only a state of mind unless you are in authority and making a ruling at the time!

Your inbox is full Duncan

 

[chrisd]

Thanks for the extra clarification Duncan

My take on it following your post is that "soft mushy ground is not casual water", abnormal ground conditions in this matter only covers casual water and a lost ball within it being possibly eligible for consideration on the virtual certainty rule. So I can't see how a lost ball plugged in the fairway, without being in casual water is anything other than that - a lost ball, and back to the tee!

 

[duncan mackie]

Thanks for the extra clarification Duncan

My take on it following your post is that "soft mushy ground is not casual water", abnormal ground conditions in this matter only covers casual water and a lost ball within it being possibly eligible for consideration on the virtual certainty rule. So I can't see how a lost ball plugged in the fairway, without being in casual water is anything other than that - a lost ball, and back to the tee!

Yes (and sorted now, sorry)

 

[chrisd]

Yes (and sorted now, sorry)

Thanks Duncan.

I think a "I was pretty sure he was confused ......... " email to the Secretary

 

[rulefan]

Just a post to support everything Duncan has said. VC is irrelevant. Either it is embedded or it isn't. EOS

 

[chrisd]

Just a post to support everything Duncan has said. VC is irrelevant. Either it is embedded or it isn't. EOS

Thanks
Presumably if it is embedded you're confirming it must be found.

Ive emailed our Secretary and detailed the relevant options etc and received a reply that he will seek clarification on Monday but initially he is also concerned that the advice was wrong

Thaks guys

 

[rulefan]

Thanks
Presumably if it is embedded you're confirming it must be found.

If you can't find/see/identify the ball you can't say it is embedded.

 

[mashleyR7]

Chris, what else was discussed? I wanted to attend but had daddy duties.

How can a rules official be so wrong on this?

Seems a pointless event??

 

[chrisd]

Chris, what else was discussed? I wanted to attend but had daddy duties.

How can a rules official be so wrong on this?

Seems a pointless event??

We saw the usual R&A video, then a rather pointless quiz and then some questions. Not really much good given that the majority there were people who would abide as best they could to the rules and the ones that were at home watching Eastenders were the ones that needed to be there.

He was asked the lost ball question by some swindle guys and got the answer wrong, I queried it with him but he was sure and I didn't feel that was time to argue. I think we will get it sorted early next week and an email will go out