Rule Question

[Crazyface]

So, you hit the ball oob ( not far) and you hit another ball off the tee without saying "provisional". As you walk along you see your first ball actually not oob but in a place where you can hit it.

Can you still hit the first ball ?

 

[Arthur Wedge]

So, you hit the ball oob ( not far) and you hit another ball off the tee without saying "provisional". As you walk along you see your first ball actually not oob but in a place where you can hit it.

Can you still hit the first ball ?

If you hit a second ball without declaring it a provisional then that’s the ball in play

 

[Backache]

So, you hit the ball oob ( not far) and you hit another ball off the tee without saying "provisional". As you walk along you see your first ball actually not oob but in a place where you can hit it.

Can you still hit the first ball ?

If you haven't stated the second ball is a provisional ball or used similar words it is now the ball in play.

 

[Colin L]

To be strictly accurate, yes you can hit the first ball. But if you do you will have played a wrong ball and lost the hole if match play and 2 strokes if stroke play.

 

[rulie]

It's worthwhile to say "provisional" when it might be appropriate.

 

[salfordlad]

And so you can veryify the nice answers already provided: if your tee shot is on the course (not OOB) and you do not invoke the Rule 18.3 option before playing another stroke from the tee, when you hit that next stroke you have substituted a ball for your ball in play (see Rule 6.3). That instantly turns your original ball into a wrong ball that can have no further legitimate role in the hole. You have proceeded under stroke and distance (Rule 18.1) even though that may not have been your conscious intent.
And to add: if this process occurs during play of a hole (not the tee stroke), the point of substitution is when you drop a ball with intent to play it - the ball hit previously is now a wrong ball.

 

[Crazyface]

Cheers everyone
Good job we didn't score with it.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

So, you hit the ball oob ( not far) and you hit another ball off the tee without saying "provisional". As you walk along you see your first ball actually not oob but in a place where you can hit it.

Can you still hit the first ball ?

No. As said, the other ball is your ball in play. This prompts thoughts of how I see quite a few players seem to automatically say provisional ball when playing a second ball from the tee ,the first one having sailed off into some bushes etc ( as opposed to possible OOB)
They seem nonplussed when it’s afterwards pointed out that playing a non provisional ball might be the better option.
Do they really want to find the first ball. ——- it might be in a horrendous place.
I know you can’t declare the first ball lost, but neither are you obliged to look for it.
If looked for and found then that is the ball you must play.
I remember Mickleson hitting a drive into waist high grass getting most upset when a lone spectator waded into it and found his ball. ( his second drive was a beauty!.) Getting upset I imagine because he’d called it as a provisional.
Decisions , decisions!

 

[WorldHandicapSystem]

Cheers everyone
Good job we didn't score with it.

Did you play on with the first ball thinking that would be ok?

A quick look at the RoG app would have given you the answer.

 

[chellie]

No. As said, the other ball is your ball in play. This prompts thoughts of how I see quite a few players seem to automatically say provisional ball when playing a second ball from the tee ,the first one having sailed off into some bushes etc ( as opposed to possible OOB)
They seem nonplussed when it’s afterwards pointed out that playing a non provisional ball might be the better option.
Do they really want to find the first ball. ——- it might be in a horrendous place.
I know you can’t declare the first ball lost, but neither are you obliged to look for it.
If looked for and found then that is the ball you must play.
I remember Mickleson hitting a drive into waist high grass getting most upset when a lone spectator waded into it and found his ball. ( his second drive was a beauty!.) Getting upset I imagine because he’d called it as a provisional.
Decisions , decisions!

I don't think you can "declare" a ball lost.

 

[irip]

I don't think you can "declare" a ball lost.

I was just thinking the same thing.
I may well be wrong but I think you could years ago.
I think now a ball being lost is what happens after the 3 minute search is over rather than a player delaying it lost.
I think if a playing partner looks and finds the ball then it automatically becomes the ball in play even if previously declared lost.
Obviously if you play another ball then that becomes the ball in play unless you declare a provisional.

This is only my thinking and better people than me will be along to correct me

 

[ManinBlack]

No. As said, the other ball is your ball in play. This prompts thoughts of how I see quite a few players seem to automatically say provisional ball when playing a second ball from the tee ,the first one having sailed off into some bushes etc ( as opposed to possible OOB)
They seem nonplussed when it’s afterwards pointed out that playing a non provisional ball might be the better option.
Do they really want to find the first ball. ——- it might be in a horrendous place.
I know you can’t declare the first ball lost, but neither are you obliged to look for it.
If looked for and found then that is the ball you must play.
I remember Mickleson hitting a drive into waist high grass getting most upset when a lone spectator waded into it and found his ball. ( his second drive was a beauty!.) Getting upset I imagine because he’d called it as a provisional.
Decisions , decisions!

That's the problem with the provisional ball rule. It gives you a choice you shouldn't have, as to whether to look for the first one or not. Were it not for that, if you found the first ball you have to decide whether to hit it or not before you knew where the provisional was going to finish. Playing a provisional therefore gives you an advantage you wouldn't have if the rule didn't exist.

 

[doublebogey7]

That's the problem with the provisional ball rule. It gives you a choice you shouldn't have, as to whether to look for the first one or not. Were it not for that, if you found the first ball you have to decide whether to hit it or not before you knew where the provisional was going to finish. Playing a provisional therefore gives you an advantage you wouldn't have if the rule didn't exist.

Yes, buts it the best of two evils, as are a number of the Rules.

 

[rulefan]

I don't think you can "declare" a ball lost.

You can't.
A ball is lost by definition.
See Lost:
The status of a ball that is not found in three minutes after the player or their caddie (or the player’s partner or partner’s caddie) begins to search for it. A ball does not become lost as a result of the player declaring it to be lost.

If a player deliberately delays the start of the search in order to allow other people to search on their behalf, the search time starts when the player would have been in a position to search had they not delayed getting to the area.

If the search begins and is then temporarily interrupted for a good reason (such as when the player stops searching when play is suspended or needs to stand aside to wait for another player to play) or when the player has mistakenly identified a wrong ball:

• The time between the interruption and when the search resumes does not count, and
• The time allowed for search is three minutes in total, counting the search time both before the interruption and after the search resumes.

I don't remember a time when this wasn't so. But it may have been before my time.

 

[chellie]

You can't.
A ball is lost by definition.
See Lost:
The status of a ball that is not found in three minutes after the player or their caddie (or the player’s partner or partner’s caddie) begins to search for it. A ball does not become lost as a result of the player declaring it to be lost.

If a player deliberately delays the start of the search in order to allow other people to search on their behalf, the search time starts when the player would have been in a position to search had they not delayed getting to the area.

If the search begins and is then temporarily interrupted for a good reason (such as when the player stops searching when play is suspended or needs to stand aside to wait for another player to play) or when the player has mistakenly identified a wrong ball:

• The time between the interruption and when the search resumes does not count, and
• The time allowed for search is three minutes in total, counting the search time both before the interruption and after the search resumes.

Was 99.99% sure I was correct.

 

[rulefan]

Was 99.99% sure I was correct.

But the 0.01% always leaves niggle

 

[DickInShorts]

If you find your original ball - having played a provisional - you have the option to play from where you last played or back on the line or drop within 2 club lengths under penalty - which if after a tee shot would be 3 off the tee - so the same as playing the provisional if the original ball had been found.
There is no requirement to play the original ball from where you find it - albeit you will incur a penalty stroke.

Hope that all makes sense??

 

[jim8flog]

No. As said, the other ball is your ball in play. This prompts thoughts of how I see quite a few players seem to automatically say provisional ball when playing a second ball from the tee ,the first one having sailed off into some bushes etc ( as opposed to possible OOB)
They seem nonplussed when it’s afterwards pointed out that playing a non provisional ball might be the better option.
Do they really want to find the first ball. ——- it might be in a horrendous place.
I know you can’t declare the first ball lost, but neither are you obliged to look for it.
If looked for and found then that is the ball you must play.
I remember Mickleson hitting a drive into waist high grass getting most upset when a lone spectator waded into it and found his ball. ( his second drive was a beauty!.) Getting upset I imagine because he’d called it as a provisional.
Decisions , decisions!

I remember the one when both he and Lickliter hit in to the woods. He requested that nobody looked for the ball but a spotter did not get the message and found the ball.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

That's the problem with the provisional ball rule. It gives you a choice you shouldn't have, as to whether to look for the first one or not. Were it not for that, if you found the first ball you have to decide whether to hit it or not before you knew where the provisional was going to finish. Playing a provisional therefore gives you an advantage you wouldn't have if the rule didn't exist.

I don’t quite understand this. If you find the first ball you have to play it. You don’t have a choice “to hit it or not”
The point I’m making is that declaring your second tee ball to be a provisional may be not the best thing to do. Because if the first ball is found then it has to be the ball in play. So then ,having to go for the “unplayable” options, may mean you have a very bad shot of say only a few yards( or go all the way back to the tee).

Not calling your second tee ball a provisional ( which may be a reasonably good shot) means you can play that second ball as the ball in play ( in fact ,you must) . In this circumstance you cannot play the first ball..it is out of play as soon as the second tee ball is played.

Chellie….I said in my post that you can’t declare a ball lost

 

[Swinglowandslow]

If you find your original ball - having played a provisional - you have the option to play from where you last played or back on the line or drop within 2 club lengths under penalty - which if after a tee shot would be 3 off the tee - so the same as playing the provisional if the original ball had been found.
There is no requirement to play the original ball from where you find it - albeit you will incur a penalty stroke.

Hope that all makes sense??

Do you mean ..the same as playing the provisional if the original ball had not been found?