Rule 3-2 in Stableford

[cliveb]

On our course, the 5th tee box is to the side about half way down the 4th fairway. In bounce games, groups routinely tee off hole 5 before completing hole 4 in order to avoid walking back up to the 5th tee. Sometimes in competition, they take their brains out of gear and do the same. Obviously a DQ under rule 3-2 (failure to hole out).

HOWEVER - this happened in a recent Stableford comp, and the point was made that we regularly pick up (ie. fail to hole out) if we can't score, and we don't get DQ'd for that. So there was some debate as to whether teeing off on the 5th out of order should simply result in a blob for the 4th hole.

Under rule 32-2a, rule 3-2 is not listed, and rule 32-2b seems to imply that the DQ is therefore only for the one hole. But I'm not certain that I'm reading this correctly.

Can any rules experts clarify this for me please?

 

[rulie]

On our course, the 5th tee box is to the side about half way down the 4th fairway. In bounce games, groups routinely tee off hole 5 before completing hole 4 in order to avoid walking back up to the 5th tee. Sometimes in competition, they take their brains out of gear and do the same. Obviously a DQ under rule 3-2 (failure to hole out).

HOWEVER - this happened in a recent Stableford comp, and the point was made that we regularly pick up (ie. fail to hole out) if we can't score, and we don't get DQ'd for that. So there was some debate as to whether teeing off on the 5th out of order should simply result in a blob for the 4th hole.

Under rule 32-2a, rule 3-2 is not listed, and rule 32-2b seems to imply that the DQ is therefore only for the one hole. But I'm not certain that I'm reading this correctly.

Can any rules experts clarify this for me please?

Not a direct answer, but a further complication - what are you going to do about the strokes played on the 4th hole after the tee shot has been made on the 5th?

 

[HawkeyeMS]

I have no idea the exact rule, but I would think there are all sorts of incorrect drop, playing from the wrong place implications.

 

[cliveb]

Not a direct answer, but a further complication - what are you going to do about the strokes played on the 4th hole after the tee shot has been made on the 5th?

Ah - excellent point which hadn't occured to me. Presumably they incur penalty shots under rule 15-3, which of course they fail to correct. I note however that rule 15-3 is not listed in rule 32-2a. So I guess it means that are also DQ'd from hole 5, and we end up with blobs on holes 4 and 5, but not DQ from the entire comp?

My head is spinning, and I really need someone like Colin or Duncan to clear this up!

 

[palindromicbob]

Ah - excellent point which hadn't occured to me. Presumably they incur penalty shots under rule 15-3, which of course they fail to correct. I note however that rule 15-3 is not listed in rule 32-2a. So I guess it means that are also DQ'd from hole 5, and we end up with blobs on holes 4 and 5, but not DQ from the entire comp?

My head is spinning, and I really need someone like Colin or Duncan to clear this up!

If you submit the card having recorded anything other than an NR for the forth and score on the 5th with applicable penalties the point is moot anyway as 6-6d does apply therefore DQ from the entire comp.

 

[louise_a]

I would have thought that in a stableford once you have teed of on the 5th, you would all blob the 4th, any shots taken on the 4th after teeing off on the 5th would constitute practicing on the course which is a 2 shot (or 2 point penalty) Rule 7-2

 

[Imurg]

Sounds like a really dumb bit of course design.........

 

[cliveb]

If you submit the card having recorded anything other than an NR for the forth and score on the 5th with applicable penalties the point is moot anyway as 6-6d does apply therefore DQ from the entire comp.

Yes, except I see that there's an exception to 6-6d which states that if the competitor didn't know he had incurred penalty shots he is not DQ'd. In which case wouldn't all those penalty strokes plus the additional 2 still just result in blobs for holes 4 and 5?

 

[cliveb]

Sounds like a really dumb bit of course design.........

Some courses don't have the luxury of loads of real estate for their layout.
I guess the course designer could instead have made the 4th fairway twice as wide and the 5th hole 150 yards shorter - which would probably be somewhat dumber.

But that doesn't really answer my rules question.

 

[rulefan]

See 11-5 and 32-2a/b

 

[HawkeyeMS]

See 11-5 and 32-2a/b

Can you explain how they apply please?

My thoughts are...

The playing of the tee shot on 5 when intending to subsequently finish 4 is a practice stroke which is a 2 shot penalty, presumably applied to hole 4?

Hole 4 is finished and then a shot is played on hole 5 from where the practice shot finished which must be playing from outside the teeing ground (since you haven't yet tee'd off). If you subsequently then finish hole 5 and tee off on hole 6 you are DQ'd?


EDIT: perhaps not dq'd entirely but from hole 5 (blob)

Then I guess there is the issue of whether you apply the penalty for practicing on hole 4. If not, and you record anything other than a blob, then you are DQ'd?

 

[cliveb]

My apologies for opening up a can of worms. I thought the answer was going to be straightforward, but was clearly mistaken!

 

[rulefan]

Just realised the OP may have meant they started the 4th but then moved to the 5th and the completed the 4th.

Rethinking.

But it seems they wrongly substituted a ball (when playing from the 5th tee) as they hadn't completed the 4th yet.
When they holed out on the 5th (not completed the 5t) and returned to the 4th, they played a wrong ball from the wrong place (?).

They then omitted the 5th.

But I'll cogitate overnight.

 

[backwoodsman]

After he's cogitated, am sure rulefan will give us the answer.

But if they play 4th in part, tee off on 5th, then complete 4th and then complete 5th I'd suggest.
a) failed complete 4th - no score for hole
b) by completing the 4th after starting 5th - wrong ball, not corrected, - dq for fifth
c) if completing 4th and/or 5th, and recording a points score for either, then dq from comp for recording a wrong score

 

[SteveW86]

Sounds like a lot of hassle to save a little bit of walking, which if you dont like walking why are you playing golf anyway?

How much time does this actually save anyway, I'd imagine it only really works if you hit the fairway as you would lose your point of reference for any wayward shot?

 

[backwoodsman]

After he's cogitated, am sure rulefan will give us the answer.

But if they play 4th in part, tee off on 5th, then complete 4th and then complete 5th I'd suggest.
a) failed complete 4th - no score for hole
b) by completing the 4th after starting 5th - wrong ball, not corrected, - dq for fifth
c) if completing 4th and/or 5th, and recording a points score for either, then dq from comp for recording a wrong score

Forget above - written in haste - but possibly

If they play 4th in part, tee off on 5th, go back to complete 4th and then complete 5th

a) By starting 5th, failed to completed 4th, DQ for 4th
b) by completing the 4th after starting 5th - wrong ball penalty - but it is actually corrected by going back to the correct ball on 5th & completing hole. So, score plus penalty for the 5th.
c) if by completing 4th and/or 5th, and recording a score on either, lower than actually taken, then how about DQ from comp for recording a wrong score?

(But is there not something somewhere about recording a "low score" only because you failed to add an unknown penalty meaning you're not necessarily DQ but get extra penalty?)

But I expect the experts will be along to put us right.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Can your club not set up a local rule to cover this? I think I have seen this type of thing before, just playing socially, in order to keep the flow of the course going. Seems eminently practical to me, just need to sort the paperwork out.

 

[rulefan]

I have cogitated.

Assuming I have the sequence right.
1) Player starts 4th from tee paying ball A
2) Moves to 5th tee and plays ball B
3) Moves back to 4th fairway and plays ball A
4) Holes out with ball A
5) Moves to 5th fairway and plays Ball B
6) Holes out with ball B.


2) When he places and plays ball B, he has wrongly substituted a ball at a wrong place. 2sp. Rule 15-2.
B is now the ball in play for hole 4.


3) When he plays ball, A he has played a wrong ball at a wrong place. 2sp. Rule 15-3.


5) If he does not correct the error before leaving the green, he is Dqd. Rule 15-3

IMO of course.

The complication with 3) is that if he lifts and replaces ball A, it is not a wrong ball but a substitution and 5 does not apply. If that is the situation the answer is different but will explain if asked.

IMO of course.

 

[cliveb]

Assuming I have the sequence right.
1) Player starts 4th from tee paying ball A
2) Moves to 5th tee and plays ball B
3) Moves back to 4th fairway and plays ball A
4) Holes out with ball A
5) Moves to 5th fairway and plays Ball B
6) Holes out with ball B.

Yes, you have the sequence right. And to avoid any possible doubt, I will just clarify by saying that in step (4) he holes out with ball A in the 4th hole, and in step (6) he holes out with ball B in the 5th hole.

2) When he places and plays ball B, he has wrongly substituted a ball at a wrong place. 2sp. Rule 15-2.
B is now the ball in play for hole 4.

Ah, right. That's another way of looking at it that hadn't occured to me.

3) When he plays ball, A he has played a wrong ball at a wrong place. 2sp. Rule 15-3.

5) If he does not correct the error before leaving the green, he is Dqd. Rule 15-3

Sounds reasonable to me, except that rule 15-3 is not listed in rule 32-2a, so my reading is that under rule 32-2b he is DQ'd from holes 4 and 5 rather than the whole comp.

The complication with 3) is that if he lifts and replaces ball A, it is not a wrong ball but a substitution and 5 does not apply. If that is the situation the answer is different but will explain if asked.

I didn't witness the actual incident, but as a general rule people just leave their balls where they are on the 4th as they tee off on the 5th, so it's almost certain that it wasn't lifted.

And finally, because they eventually hand in a card where they've signed for a lower score than they should on holes 4 and 5, they are DQ'd under rule 6-6d, but because that isn't listed in 32-2a, once again they are only DQ'd on holes 4 and 5. Also, according to Note 3 of 32-1b, breach of 6-6d in Stableford incurs a further two point deduction from the total score for each breach.

So in summary it looks as if the offenders should not have been DQ'd from the comp, but instead have been blobbed on holes 4 and 5 and had a further 4 points deducted for the breach of 6-6d on those two holes. I doubt they would have been in with a chance of any prizes under those circumstances, so no harm done
But good to know the correct procedure for future reference.

 

[cliveb]

Sounds like a lot of hassle to save a little bit of walking, which if you dont like walking why are you playing golf anyway?

The walk back to the 5th tee is about 150 yards uphill. We have a lot of seniors who still enjoy playing but like to reduce the effort involved.

How much time does this actually save anyway, I'd imagine it only really works if you hit the fairway as you would lose your point of reference for any wayward shot?

If the course is clear, it does save a bit of time and effort.

But I personally think it holds up the group behind if you're not well clear of them. I regularly make this point when the group I'm in suggest doing it, but it seems to be some sort of dogma in the club to do it, and as a relative newcomer (only been there 6 years) I prefer not to rock the boat.