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Robotic or touchy feely...

Hobbit

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There's been any number of threads with one side saying just hit it, find it and hit it again. And then conversely there's been those that promote a more 'fixed' approach with angles of dangles etc. Occasionally, as both parties argue more and more rabidly, a gem of an idea surfaces only to be buried in the white noise of argument.

So which version is the right way forward??? OMG!! I can hear the stampede of hooves as the protaganists dash forward to declare their case.

I'll declare my version up front but... I started playing way back when kids weren't welcome on the course, or in the clubhouse in my 1st club, and you went out when no one was about and you taught yourself by trial and error, and I became a touchy feely player.

The mid/late 70's saw pro's becoming better at teaching, and teaching a method that suited an individual's physical and technical ability - ah, the good old days when pro and pupil were partners who worked together. Sadly then came the (robotic) Leadbetter years, or was it sadly? For Faldo, who in my honest opinion had a fantastic swing pre Leadbetter, doing a major rework worked. But for Sandy Lyle, who in my opinion had a better swing, who went down the manufactured route, it most definitely didn't... what a sad demise... well, that isn't conclusive...

More recent years has seen the professionals, and the PGA, realise that the 40 yr olds new to golf will not get his/her body into the same body positions as the Luke Donald's of this world. They returned to accepting the idea that they have to work with what they've got - a decent pro, new or old who has kept current with modern methods, will do the right thing by the pupil. It won't be an instant, fast food McDonalds, fix but a decent modern pro actually wants what you want.

So where does all that fit in with my touchy feely belief that golf can be easily self taught? I could name any number of top pro's who've made a fantastic living from golf - the quirky swings of the really old pro's who had to work with hickory shafts, thro' to Bobby Locke, Calvin Peete, Lee Trevino, Eamonn Darcy, Nick Price and Jim Furyk... but then there's the modern, manufactured, swings of a multitude of players who, equally, have made a great living from the game - is Tiger's modern, Foley, taught swing working...?

I've done the JO thing of standing on the practice ground, but not for 12 hrs, (more recently a range - modern cwap) with, relatively, new amatuers and suggested anything from S&T to 1 plane/2 plane. Pretty much whatever version works for you...

But basically, if your 4 beats my 5 you're doing it the right way. Whatever version you're using that scores well is right for you. *runs for the hills whilst putting on a tin hat*

Robots or... does it really matter?
 

JustOne

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So where does all that fit in with my touchy feely belief that golf can be easily self taught?

Firstly good post.

What's the measure... h/cap? If we take forumers for example (as that's the spread of golfers that we have access to) shouldn't they all be pretty close to scratch (with no lessons) if golf can be self taught easily? or are you suggesting that you can self teach to a certain level?
 

bluewolf

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I'm a "Touchy Feely". In my ever so humble opinion, beginners should be taught the basics of grip, stance, alignment, then set free into the golfing world to fend for themselves, with only an occasional refresher to maintain their passage to become "as good as they can be".

The last 18 months have been a golfing disaster for me. Too much information has affected my swing. I'm so busy thinking about positions and tempo and planes and arms and wrists and everything else that I've forgotten how to hit the ball. This has resulted in a RSI, that has ultimately led to an injury serious enough to stop me playing for several months. When I eventually do return, I'm going to visit a pro that I trust, who'll reiterate the basics stated above. Then I'm going to hit the course and learn to just play golf again.

Sorry for the ramble, but I'm bored and I've no one interesting to talk to...:thup:
 

Foxholer

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You can always apply the 'find out what works' approach to playing Golf to the task of learning how to!

Try (test drive) the various methods of learning, find out what works best - for you - and use whatever hybrid approach(es) work best, while being content to reject approaches that don't work - for you. As long as you are open-minded, there's even a place for the 'Monkey Brain', or similar, approach - for some.
 

bluewolf

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Firstly good post.

What's the measure... h/cap? If we take forumers for example (as that's the spread of golfers that we have access to) shouldn't they all be pretty close to scratch (with no lessons) if golf can be self taught easily? or are you suggesting that you can self teach to a certain level?

Not wanting to barge into Hobbit's post, but the reference to scratch is only relevant if you believe that everyone is capable of reaching that level. If you do (and I don't), then the true measure is the time taken to reach scratch.

With regards to my own (lack of) ability, I learn better from watching and attempting to copy in my own time. I have never excelled in a teaching environment, but have excelled in areas where I have self taught.
 

JustOne

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Try (test drive) the various methods of learning, find out what works best - for you - and use whatever hybrid approach(es) work best, while being content to reject approaches that don't work - for you. As long as you are open-minded, there's even a place for the 'Monkey Brain', or similar, approach - for some.
Do people really figure this out easily? Most generally do the same thing over and over again and wonder why it's not working (or expect the result to change), then if they find something that works for a while (a whole round maybe) they either don't know what to do when it stops working or they can't remember it the next time or they try to add one more change and the wheels fall off completely.

I would prefer some kind of a method, at least some kind of talk about the swing, what happens and why... then people can have at least a little more guidance than how to hold the club and which way to point it.
 

JustOne

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Not wanting to barge into Hobbit's post, but the reference to scratch is only relevant if you believe that everyone is capable of reaching that level. If you do (and I don't), then the true measure is the time taken to reach scratch.

I was after Hobbit's idea of 'measure', he said he believes it's easily self taught :thup:
 

Foxholer

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Firstly good post.

What's the measure... h/cap? If we take forumers for example (as that's the spread of golfers that we have access to) shouldn't they all be pretty close to scratch (with no lessons) if golf can be self taught easily? or are you suggesting that you can self teach to a certain level?

Applying that logic 'in reverse' - to lessons, Homer should be on tour! (Sorry Homer, no harm meant; just the obvious example).

As neither actually happens (though there are several pretty low self-taughts), that must mean the argument is flawed.

If you could somehow assess potential - something I believe is an attribute (limitation) of an individual - as opposed to h/cap - then maybe the success of either end-of-scale method could be measured. Unfortunately, I don't believe there's a sound way to accurately measure potential - at last not for adults.

Do people really figure this out easily? Most generally do the same thing over and over again and wonder why it's not working (or expect the result to change), then if they find something that works for a while (a whole round maybe) they either don't know what to do when it stops working or they can't remember it the next time or they try to add one more change and the wheels fall off completely.

I agree. But that's mainly out of habit/laziness/comfort/availability or the like.

And on that (surprising) concurrence, I'm off to dream about Eagles and Albatrosses while avoiding the evil Witch - Heather! The last word's all yours - tonight!:D
 
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Robobum

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It's always seemed that the "hit it, find it" guys make that suggestion to those who are, by their posts, obviously getting lost in amongst technical overload. It's an approach to try to inject some fun back into it for them. Blue wolfs post about being confused by 1000 positions and swing thoughts is a good example.

I 100% advocate good, basic, clear & concise lessons for beginners.
 

chellie

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Am not interested in the mechanics at all. Might change later on but my Pro knows I need to know how something should feel.
 

kid2

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Great post Hobbit.... I'm not sure what camp my swing falls into.... To look as an onlooker maybe very angled and robotic... Bit to me it feels comfy..... I'd love the natural touchy thing and last week at tge range I spent the whole session not worrying about angles.... The one thought I kept in my head was swing the way Jason Duffner does... Use his rhythm ... I have to say I really enjoyed it.... If I'm honest it looked like I was hitting the ball further and straighter.. .. Now I still hit a few bad ones but it tended to be when I swung a bit quick.... I would love to be able to swing like the perceived textbook swing of the arms more above the shoulders on the backswing but I physically can't.... It feels very contrived.... I'm off to the range again tonight with the same thoughts just for a bit of fun... Whether or not I have the cobbles to bring it into play or not tomorrow and Sunday is another story but we'll see...I'd love the idea of hit it find it but I think she n you go down the lessons route it does get a bit mechanical... I know it did for me anyway.. but its something I can still use when I need it....
 

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The best way I've found to work for me is to understand how/why things happen in the swing.

If I can understand how something is supposed to work, I feel I can more accurately replicate the movenemt.

That's why I think I get on with my pro so well. He doesn't just show me the movement he wants me to make, and ask me to copy his movements. He'll show me how to do it, then as I do it explain why I'm doing it, what it causes to happen elsewhere, and the consequences of not doing it.

As has been quite rightly pointed out, everyone is different, but I've found this the best method for me :thup:
 

duncan mackie

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It's always seemed that the "hit it, find it" guys make that suggestion to those who are, by their posts, obviously getting lost in amongst technical overload. It's an approach to try to inject some fun back into it for them. Blue wolfs post about being confused by 1000 positions and swing thoughts is a good example.

I 100% advocate good, basic, clear & concise lessons for beginners.

:thup:

take 20 new to golf 15year olds and let 10 learn it themselves and put 10 in the hands of a good professional - 12 months later there really won't be any comparison in the groups.

there will be 1, maybe 2, of the group who have both natural aptitude for sports and do enough work to progress significantly but it will be the distribution of the progress across the whole group that illustrates the real difference.

over this age it's much more difficult to find neutral groups; the reasons people take up the sport, their committment and how they judge their own progress will all combine to confuse any measurement processes - the membership of these, and other, forums are an excellent example of this!
 
S

Snelly

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I'm a "Touchy Feely". In my ever so humble opinion, beginners should be taught the basics of grip, stance, alignment, then set free into the golfing world to fend for themselves, with only an occasional refresher to maintain their passage to become "as good as they can be".

...:thup:

This is my opinion too. Lessons on fundamentals are essential: grip, alignment, tempo and etiquette. After that, becoming a good player comes from within the individual and from playing the game with purpose. It is the same for most sports. There is only so much you can teach.

Lots of factors go into becoming very good at a given sport. Coaching is just one part of it and some take to this element and derive more from it than others. Get the fundamentals right and then off you go. Put 10,000+ hours in and see how good you can become.

I do accept of course that others learn in different ways. That said, I don't know many good robot golfers (I am talking about good amateurs - HC less than 3) but I do know a lot of good players that went the route I have articulated above.

We become excellent by doing something a lot and having the right set of circumstances to excel in.


Read Bounce by Matthew Syed for some interesting insights into this subject.
 

londonlewis

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Great thread and great answers, which offers the analysis that 'one size doesn't fit all' when it comes to the approach of the golfer to their game.
And funnily enough this is how I fit into it. There are certain aspects of my game where I try to be robotic (chipping in particular as it helps me get consistent results).
But there are many aspects which comes down to feel.
I have never had a lesson, unlikely to ever have a lesson, but I have invested a lot of time in researching / reading etc... and found that I have been able to improve by adding in my own hard work as well as learning good technique. etc...

What a great game and I can't wait to play my next round!
 

Hobbit

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I was after Hobbit's idea of 'measure', he said he believes it's easily self taught :thup:

Gross score is the measure. A h'cap can become a mental pit prop that actually gets in the way of development. How many players do we know that have had a good cut but then struggle, even though they shot lower to get that cut...?

Good fundimentals, learned formally, then go out and groove a swing. Then decide whether its a formal, in-depth, coaching or just go out and self learn.

Different players learn differently, it's a science in its own right. One player might work better with imitation(observational) or transfer learning, whereas the next player may work better with associative learning. Giving some players a strict, formal route might actually be totally wrong for them but right for the next person.

Some people need to know the intricacies whilst others just want to learn the 'feel' and see the result. Neither are wrong.

You learned to walk by observation and copying, then perfecting. The golf swing, although more complex, can be learned the same way.

Who taught the first teacher?
 
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