Replacing opponents ball

[SaintHacker]

This happened today, really not sure if this is a rule break or just bad ettiquette but I wasn't happy about it. My partners ball was on the green, one of our oppo's hit his shot into the green which knocked my partners ball a foot or so. His partner then picked up my partners ball and replaced where he thought it was. Is that a rule break? Didn't matter in the grand scheme as I then didn't give him a 8 inch gimmee and holed out for a birdie myself to win the hole, and ultimately the match, but interested to hear peoples thoughts as to whether this is ok?

 

[rosecott]

This happened today, really not sure if this is a rule break or just bad ettiquette but I wasn't happy about it. My partners ball was on the green, one of our oppo's hit his shot into the green which knocked my partners ball a foot or so. His partner then picked up my partners ball and replaced where he thought it was. Is that a rule break? Didn't matter in the grand scheme as I then didn't give him a 8 inch gimmee and holed out for a birdie myself to win the hole, and ultimately the match, but interested to hear peoples thoughts as to whether this is ok?

Neither a rule break nor bad etiquette. All rule 18.5 says is that the moved ball must be replaced. Clearly there must be agreement as to where it is replaced but the replacing can be done by anyone.

 

[rulefan]

20-3a
A ball to be replaced under the Rules must be replaced by any one of the following: (i) the person who lifted or moved the ball, (ii) the player, or (iii) the player's partner. The ball must be placed on the spot from which it was lifted or moved. If the ball is placed or replaced by any other person and the error is not corrected as provided in Rule 20-6, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke. In any such case, the player is responsible for any other breach of the Rules that occurs as a result of the placing or replacing of the ball.

 

[Slab]

^^^^

So if I read that right three players of the 4-ball could replace the ball within the rules and the only one that cant is the one that did it in the OP post?

Then its actually the player who's ball was moved that gets the penalty for the incorrect player replacing the ball?

 

[atticusfinch]

^^^^

So if I read that right three players of the 4-ball could replace the ball within the rules and the only one that cant is the one that did it in the OP post?

Then its actually the player who's ball was moved that gets the penalty for the incorrect player replacing the ball?

Isn't he (opponent's partner) the person who lifted the ball to replace it?

 

[Slab]

Isn't he (opponent's partner) the person who lifted the ball to replace it?

That's the way I read it

And the opponents partner (who didn't hit the ball that moved the players ball) isn't listed as a person who can replace it

So if I'm still following it then:
Player who owns ball = player A
Player A's partner = Player B (also the OP)
Opponent who's ball hit Player A's ball = player C
Opponents partner (who cant replace it) = player D

I'm reading that it was player D that replaced Player A's ball ball and player A gets the penalty (if player A doesn't correct it)

 

[duncan mackie]

Firstly I think we are dealing with 20-3 c (iii) as the ball wasn't marked and lifted as required under 20-3 a, and it's the presumption of marking which gives rise to the logical list of those who may replace.

20-3c (iii) makes no such listing because it's simply the players responsibility to ensure that the ball is played from an appropriate spot. 'An' because there may be more than one that fits the best estimating process.

If one of the opponents places the ball in a position, and the player plays it from that position, there's an implication that both parties are happy with that estimate and, in matchplay, that becomes the defacto correct position.

 

[Slab]

Maybe my weird thinking but 20-3 c (iii) is still a rule

Therefore its still a "A ball to be placed under the Rules... " situation and needs to proceed as per 20-3

So isn't the list still applicable?

 

[duncan mackie]

Maybe my weird thinking but 20-3 c (iii) is still a rule

Therefore its still a "A ball to be placed under the Rules... " situation and needs to proceed as per 20-3

So isn't the list still applicable?

Thinking more, I believe I'm wrong above. Whilst -3 c deals with the where, 3 a does cover both lifted and moved balls.

As such I agree your analysis of the wording applied to 4BBB.

In the match referenced this would then raise the question of who knew the rule and how did the proceed ie did the player who shouldn't have replaced it know that, and did he wait for the player to make his stroke and then claim the hole?
Also, did the player mark the replaced ball and then put it back, in which case there wouldn't be an issue because he's replaced it on the spot he's playing from!

 

[BTatHome]

I can't see the logic of why there would be a penalty in this case. If the ball is replaced, by whoever, and everyone agrees to the placement being in the correct place, they why would there be a problem. Seems to be adding in a level of complexity that just should not exist .... plus in such instances as above how should it actually be corrected, looks to be that the player should lift the ball and replace in exactly the same place .... why can that be logical?

 

[atticusfinch]

Didn't player D lift the ball from where it rolled after being hit? He is not the person who moved the ball but he is the one who lifted it. Right?

 

[anotherdouble]

That's the way I read it

And the opponents partner (who didn't hit the ball that moved the players ball) isn't listed as a person who can replace it

So if I'm still following it then:
Player who owns ball = player A
Player A's partner = Player B (also the OP)
Opponent who's ball hit Player A's ball = player C
Opponents partner (who cant replace it) = player D

I'm reading that it was player D that replaced Player A's ball ball and player A gets the penalty (if player A doesn't correct it)

From how I read the OP slab has the explanation nailed on.

 

[Robobum]

This happened today, really not sure if this is a rule break or just bad ettiquette but I wasn't happy about it. My partners ball was on the green, one of our oppo's hit his shot into the green which knocked my partners ball a foot or so. His partner then picked up my partners ball and replaced where he thought it was. Is that a rule break? Didn't matter in the grand scheme as I then didn't give him a 8 inch gimmee and holed out for a birdie myself to win the hole, and ultimately the match, but interested to hear peoples thoughts as to whether this is ok?

No, I don't think that is ok

 

[atticusfinch]

I'm being dense today. Please help me know this out.

18-5. By Another Ball
If a ball in play and at rest is moved by another ball in motion after a stroke, the moved ball must be replaced. Does not specify who replaces it.

OP: His partner then picked up my partners ball and replaced where he thought it was. Is not picking up the ball lifting it?

20-3. Placing and Replacing
a. By Whom and Where
***
A ball to be replaced under the Rules must be replaced by any one of the following: (i) the person who lifted or moved the ball, (ii) the player, or (iii) the player's partner.

Does not this describe what the OP says? Opponent's partner lifted the ball after it was moved by another ball. He was the person who lifted the ball and is authorized to replace it.

 

[rulefan]

I'm being dense today. Please help me know this out.

18-5. By Another Ball
If a ball in play and at rest is moved by another ball in motion after a stroke, the moved ball must be replaced. Does not specify who replaces it.

OP: His partner then picked up my partners ball and replaced where he thought it was. Is not picking up the ball lifting it?

20-3. Placing and Replacing
a. By Whom and Where
***
A ball to be replaced under the Rules must be replaced by any one of the following: (i) the person who lifted or moved the ball, (ii) the player, or (iii) the player's partner.

Does not this describe what the OP says? Opponent's partner lifted the ball after it was moved by another ball. He was the person who lifted the ball and is authorized to replace it.

.
But he (the opponent's partner) didn't replace it, he placed it. The opponent moved it from its original position.

 

[rulie]

.
But he (the opponent's partner) didn't replace it, he placed it. The opponent moved it from its original position.

If the opponent moved the ball, it would be a breach of Rule 18-3b and the opponent would incur a one stroke penalty. I submit that the opponent did not move the ball, nor did his equipment. Perhaps the opponent's partner is guilty of a breach of 18-3b?

In any case, the ball needs to get back to its original (or estimated original) spot and the game needs to go one.

The moral of the story - don't touch anyone's ball in play, other than your own.

 

[backwoodsman]

.
But he (the opponent's partner) didn't replace it, he placed it. The opponent moved it from its original position.

But your honour, I submit that he (the opponent's partner) did replace the ball? Surely he couldn't be doing anything else given the wording of rule 18-5? (Ball was sitting on the green. It got moved by another ball. 18-5 says it has to be replaced (and does not say has to be "placed") But whether it was permissible for him to do so, I still don't understand ...

 

[atticusfinch]

.
But he (the opponent's partner) didn't replace it, he placed it. The opponent moved it from its original position.

Now you've lost me. Player's ball is at rest on the green. Opponent makes a stroke at his own ball and it lands and strikes players ball, moving it. The players ball was not moved by the opponent, it was moved by the opponent's ball in motion after a stroke. R18-5. applies. R18-5 says the moved ball must be "replaced" (IE put back where it was.) It does not say placed. (I never thought about it before, but placed has to mean put in a new location, replaced means put back where it was.)

 

[Crow]

What a can of worms.

 

[rulefan]

Now you've lost me. Player's ball is at rest on the green. Opponent makes a stroke at his own ball and it lands and strikes players ball, moving it. The players ball was not moved by the opponent, it was moved by the opponent's ball in motion after a stroke. R18-5. applies. R18-5 says the moved ball must be "replaced" (IE put back where it was.) It does not say placed. (I never thought about it before, but placed has to mean put in a new location, replaced means put back where it was.)

.
Sorry, I agree the opponent did not move the ball as specified by the rule. However, it was moved.
18-5 says it must be replaced. We know replacing includes dropping in certain circumstances but it has never been suggested that it includes placing.
20-3 tells us who must replace it and it doesn't include the opponent or opponent's partner.

The opponent's partner did not put it down it from where he picked it up but somewhere else. On the basis that the ball was still in play should he not get a 1 stroke penalty under 18-3?