Red Penalty areas

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louise_a

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One of the local rule options for Red Penalty Areas is to just have red stakes on one side of area on olny so it extends to infinity on the other side , and this scenario perfectly fits our 9th. However it is possible to go into this area by over shooting the green on the 8th hole.

So my question is how would this impact, if indeed it does, on a ball entering this area when playing the 8th?
 
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rulefan

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One of the local rule options for Red Penalty Areas is to just have red stakes on one side of area only, on a named hole, and this scenario perfectly fits our 9th. However it is possible to go into this area by over shooting the green on the 8th hole.

So my question is how would this impact, if indeed it does, on a ball entering this area when playing the 8th?
It should be marked appropriately for a ball played from that side, which may be yellow or red depending.
 
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louise_a

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It should be marked appropriately for a ball played from that side, which may be yellow or red depending.
Thanks, but I believe the intention is to not have it marked as a hazard on the other hole and I am sceptical as to whether this is ok
 

Colin L

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Is it a penalty area because it meets the Definition of a "body of water ......." or is it another kind of area designated by the Committee? If it's what is currently called a lateral water hazard then it will be a penalty area in 2019 whether marked or not. If it sn't a water kind of penalty area and is marked on one side with an indication that it extends to the course boundary then any ball coming to rest in the area so indicated is in the penalty area regardless of where it was played from. You can mark different parts of it red or yellow as Rulefan says and from the sound of it you would be looking at yellow marking behind your 8th green.

You are right to be sceptical.
 

mikejohnchapman

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One of the local rule options for Red Penalty Areas is to just have red stakes on one side of area on olny so it extends to infinity on the other side , and this scenario perfectly fits our 9th. However it is possible to go into this area by over shooting the green on the 8th hole.

So my question is how would this impact, if indeed it does, on a ball entering this area when playing the 8th?
Sorry to be a pedant but the Penalty Areas are a rule of Golf in 2019 not a local rule.

In your scenario if it was marked both ways then a drop zone might be needed on your 8th hole side as the ball has to be dropped on the side of entry where it crossed.
 
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louise_a

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Sorry to be a pedant but the Penalty Areas are a rule of Golf in 2019 not a local rule.

In your scenario if it was marked both ways then a drop zone might be needed on your 8th hole side as the ball has to be dropped on the side of entry where it crossed.
I didn't say they weren't a rule, I was referring to the local rule you can have in place allowing lateral relief on specific named holes
 

Colin L

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I'm now confused as to what the question is!

If the local rule you refer to is the one that says that when playing Hole X the yellow penalty area on Hole Y is to be played as a red penalty area, I suppose you could use it in reverse - i.e mark an area in red and say that on a certiain hole it is to be played yellow but that woudl only be necessary if you wanted to restrict players who hit into the area from the 8th to the 2 yellow penalty area relief options. I think that to use this LR an area needs to be fully marked or identifiable by its natural margins.

Using the "stretching to infinity" LR presents the practical difficulty for the player overhitting on the 8th of knowing whether their ball is in the penalty area since the edge is not marked. I see that way of defining a red penalty area as being appopriate to holes on the side of course alongside a lake, a sea, a desert, a forest. It does not seem to be workable if it is possible to play a ball into the area on one of the unmarked sides unless you think it does not really matter if players get their estimate of whether they are in the penalty area wrong.

The unhelpful conclusion is that "perfect solution" for the 9th isn't really that perfect, is it? If it were, you wouldn't be here asking this question. I'm not seeing a solution other than marking to make things clear for those playing the 8th. Saying that the penalty area applies only to the 9th hole does not seem to be an option in terms of the permissible local rules. I may, however, have missed something that someone else has spotted.
 

rulefan

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Thanks, but I believe the intention is to not have it marked as a hazard on the other hole and I am sceptical as to whether this is ok
If it fits the definition of a penalty area, it is a penalty area regardless of whether it is marked or not. This also applies to a current water hazard.

The questions are what colour it should be and what relief options are available when playing either hole.
 
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louise_a

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I'm now confused as to what the question is!
Maybe I clarify, our 9th is a par 3 in a valley, there is a stream running all the way up the right hand side and to the right of the stream is the wooded side if the valley.

Currently the stream is marked as a red hazard but not the side of the valley, so a ball hit widely can hit trees and then bounce into the stream often allowing a lateral drop quite near the green.

so what is proposed is to make the stream and the hillside part of a red penalty area and make a local rule on the9th to allow lateral relief, so the wayward ball can only cross the area once and give a more reasonable drop.
That makes sense to me, however it is proposed to mark the penalty area on one side only, so it extends to infinity, but as the 8th green is at the top of the valley a ball can enter the wooded area from the 8th and this is what they are compete ignoring.

So I am trying to get information to show the rest of the people making the decision that infinity is wrong.
 

rulefan

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I haven't seen anything in the 2019 rules permitting a penalty area to apply for one hole but not another.

Is it possible for a ball played from the 9th to go beyond the (limited) penalty area onto the 8th hole?
Am I right in thinking the direction of play of the 8th is at right angles to the direction of play on the 9th?
 
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Colin L

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Louise, I've taken this illlustration of your 9th from your website and added a red line on the fairway side of the ditch. Is that the sort of set-up that your people are looking for, with the penalty area extending infinitely to the right? Which of the arrowed lines is nearest to the direction a ball is likely to be coming in from the 8th? ellesmere 9th.jpeg
 

Colin L

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As you'll see from the illustration below, if you define the penalty with stakes along one side and an LR stating it stretches to infiinity to its right, a huge part of your whole course is turned into a penalty area. The solid red line represents the marked line along the fairway and the dotted red line the imagined edges of the penalty area at right angles to the marked line. The whole shaded area between the dotted lines and the solid line is a penalty area!

Like Rulefan, I've not found anything that permits a local rule to limit a penalty area to one particular hole. You would have to seek approval of one from the R&A or, failing that, it comes back to having to mark off the whole area.

There is guidance coming out from CONGU about penalty areas including the need to be aware of the challenges of a particular hole and its design. You wll have to refer the inclusion of new penalty areas to EG as they might affect the course rating. ellesmere penalty area.jpeg
 

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rulie

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As you'll see from the illustration below, if you define the penalty with stakes along one side and an LR stating it stretches to infiinity to its right, a huge part of your whole course is turned into a penalty area. The solid red line represents the marked line along the fairway and the dotted red line the imagined edges of the penalty area at right angles to the marked line. The whole shaded area between the dotted lines and the solid line is a penalty area!

Like Rulefan, I've not found anything that permits a local rule to limit a penalty area to one particular hole. You would have to seek approval of one from the R&A or, failing that, it comes back to having to mark off the whole area.

There is guidance coming out from CONGU about penalty areas including the need to be aware of the challenges of a particular hole and its design. You wll have to refer the inclusion of new penalty areas to EG as they might affect the course rating. View attachment 25796
What a mess that marking would create! Much of the whole course is a penalty area. Can you use a tee in a penalty area? What are the Rules for putting greens in a penalty area - eg,can you mark, lift, clean and replace your ball?
The correct thing for the Committee to do is mark both sides and I'd suggest it all be marked red.
 
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louise_a

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The correct thing for the Committee to do is mark both sides and I'd suggest it all be marked red.
Which is what I have suggested.

Thanks for the work you have put in Colin, I will see how they respond to my latest email before troubling you to send the diagram
 
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