Radical proposal

[Green Bay Hacker]

Following on from some of the comments in the 'We all decided to walk off today' thread about how good or bad some clubs committees were, I thought I would post a comment I was told at the weekend.

I played with a few members of another local club that has a large bank overdraft (not unusual) and discussions in the bar afterwards turned to how little the club appeared to be doing to bring in additional revenue from weddings, christenings etc.

One of the members then recounted a recent conversation that he had had with a senior member of the committee who said that he would 'willingly pay £1,500 per year to keep these people (green fees) off the course'. Fees at this course are approx. £750 at the moment.

Members at high end clubs would probably agree with this comment but to most it would mean a mass exodus if it was implemented. Maybe the comment was a bit tongue in cheek and we have all probably had similar thoughts when stuck behind visiting parties on the course but what do you guys think?

 

[stevie_r]

It was mentioned from the floor during our AGM last night and quickly shot down. It's a vital chunk of revenue to us, I doubt members would put up with a large increase tbh, a significant proportion would walk; there is just too much competition around Glasgow/ Renfrewshire/ W. Dumbartonshire.

 

[Deleted member 17920]

There is always one or two members who say that but in reality it's never going to happen! Every club needs visitors

 

[harpo_72]

I joined my present club because the green fee was set at a level I know most casual golfers won't pay, serious ones will. If your a serious golfer your going to know the quirks of the game and not hold too many people up. My previous club was selling green fees for discounted rates via group on, it led to not being able to get a tee time and when you did the rounds were in excess of 5hrs ... My membership fees at my present club are £1335 a year, my rounds take 4hrs maximum, I generally can get on tee on a Saturday or Sunday during the summer and have clear round in fact even through the week I can do it. To me that is what the benefit of membership should be, when a club thinks green fees are more important than its members, I will not join it or I will leave.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

We are quite good at balancing green fees and societies and they never really seem to impact too much on members. Societies in particular have their times advertised for the members well in advance so no excuse for not knowing. We rely on their money and I have no qualms about them coming. We are beginning to get more people using the clubhouse as a venue for weddings and functions which again I have no truck with. Every little helps and if it stops my fees going up more than say £20-30 per year that'll do me

 

[duncan mackie]

no financial plan of this nature survives 3 months of the UK weather....

long term (10 years plus) you can make such plans subject to appropriate financial coverage (someone has 10 x 10% of the clubs annual expenditure spare - for example) otherwise the dog was the tail.

 

[Foxholer]

Plenty of other different Models that can satisfy both the demands for visitor revenue and for the 'as-and-when' access that Members want, without it being a free-for-all. Presumably, it's the unavailability of the course due to Societies/Free for Alls that is the concern.

1. Members and Member's Guests only. No Green Fees. No societies.
Most expensive for the Member, but some are willing to pay for that privilege. Examples are Centurion, Queenwood. The Wisley, The Renaissance. Brockett Hall used to, but opened up after 2008 - because Corporate Membership evaporated, so just not financially viable.
2. Visitor/Public Days. Green Fees and Societies allowed on certain days of week. Exclusive to Members/Guests other days.
Muirfield, Old Fold Manor (required as part of lease of the Council owned land). Not a bad balance imo. Revenue potentially increased, Members know the risk on those days. Visitors get to play.
3. Societies only; Members work around - Societies/Visitors on Weekdays only and certain times. Members can manage which tee/time they start or know they will get a 'head start' if playing before certain time. Hankley Common and many others do this. Swinley Forest actually have a Society (almost) every Week Day (but no straight Visitors), but Societies are carefully 'vetted'.
4. Price. Hardest to get right, but can maximise income. Members, especially of private clubs, realise their subs are being subsidised by the visitors and, if price is high enough, there are not sufficient to really cause real issues. Most Open venues and other high ranking Clubs do this. Archerfield is this way and Gullane is for #1 (imo!). Brockett has gone to that model - and lost some members because of it, but presumably expect to benefit overall. I know of one 'top' club where Visitor fee (day ticket) is 10% of Member's sub and a 'good but not great' Resort was charging 5%, just for 1 round - and the members still complain! Wentworth is the epitome of this model!

 

[full_throttle]

Beau Desert welcomes visitors every day, but do have reserved tee times for members, most of the green fees include food, so extra revenue in the clubhouse before/after the round.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

One of my old clubs took a substantial amount of income with funerals/wakes.
Quite a safe option, generally weekday off peak times, few kids, usually buffet, much drink consumed.
We also had a monthly C&W club meet there on Saturday nights.
Avoid christenings but off season weddings are good earners with little disturbance.
Ask yourself what time does your clubhouse close on a winters Saturday night. If it is 6pm, you should think about getting busy.

The other aspect of this business is that it introduces your club to prospective members.

 

[Hacker Khan]

One of the members then recounted a recent conversation that he had had with a senior member of the committee who said that he would 'willingly pay £1,500 per year to keep these people (green fees) off the course'. Fees at this course are approx. £750 at the moment.

Not such a great way to grow the game though is it, keeping 'these people' off the course. And in my opinion kind of a good/sad example of the short sightedness and at times insular thinking that goes on at times in golf clubs. Can't think of any other sport that thinks that deliberately excluding people is a good business model.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I might like the 'no visitors keep the course quiet and as I like it' idea if that was all that mattered - but it isn't. We don't really need large numbers of visitors anyway - we need 50 more members as our numbers have been allowed to drop.

But I want to be a member of a club where visitors can come along and play without having to fork out a kings ransom. I want my lovely course and club to be enjoyed by golfers -and not just by those with deep pockets. And by encouraging visitors in a sensible way we can have the word spread about the club and course and in that way attract the members we could do with - and whom we will need on a year-to-year basis to refresh the membership and replace members who leave.

 

[USER1999]

I would be happy to pay more, and have fewer societies. I am getting my wish to an extent, as the subs are going up, due to fewer societies booking due to recession. Not good for the club though.

Itsalso hard to justify increasing the subs to members who only ever play on satudays. They dont care if the course is mobbed on a Friday, as they're at work.

 

[patricks148]

I joined my present club because the green fee was set at a level I know most casual golfers won't pay, serious ones will. If your a serious golfer your going to know the quirks of the game and not hold too many people up. My previous club was selling green fees for discounted rates via group on, it led to not being able to get a tee time and when you did the rounds were in excess of 5hrs ... My membership fees at my present club are £1335 a year, my rounds take 4hrs maximum, I generally can get on tee on a Saturday or Sunday during the summer and have clear round in fact even through the week I can do it. To me that is what the benefit of membership should be, when a club thinks green fees are more important than its members, I will not join it or I will leave.

I'm not sure a high green fee keeps the non serious golfer away. we charge over £100 for a visitor green fee and i can recount plenty of occasions when many of those playing have no clue on etiquette or slow play, but thats also true of a few of our members

We get a reasonable amount of green fees, but not enough to subsidise the membership. How ever Take Royal Dornoch for instance. I think they have around 10-15,000 greens fee's wich does and allows them to still only have a £500 membership. to counter this the members have the tee booked everyday up untill mid morning and thats a 3 hour round most of the time then visitors go out after that and then you tend to get long rounds.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I'm not sure a high green fee keeps the non serious golfer away. we charge over £100 for a visitor green fee and i can recount plenty of occasions when many of those playing have no clue on etiquette or slow play, but thats also true of a few of our members

We get a reasonable amount of green fees, but not enough to subsidise the membership. How ever Take Royal Dornoch for instance. I think they have around 10-15,000 greens fee's wich does and allows them to still only have a £500 membership. to counter this the members have the tee booked everyday up untill mid morning and thats a 3 hour round most of the time then visitors go out after that and then you tend to get long rounds.

I would love to play your track as I love links golf and am aware of the history of your club and it's place in the history of the game - unfortunately (for me) I just am not willing to pay or could actually justify paying £100 for the pleasure. But I guess your club isn't bothered about me - which is a pity.

 

[drawboy]

It has to be balanced. Yes everyone likes affordable green fees but they are only affordable because of visitors and the revenue they bring in to any club. An empty golf course is an expensive commodity. We are lucky and have a good revenue stream as our clubhouse is in great demand for wedding,christening and birthday functions and is usually booked up most Saturday and Sundays. Tables are put aside for members and reserved but there is seldom any adverse comments from members because we all realise that without visitors we would either have to pay double for no better course conditions or the club would fold.
Clubs should embrace their visitors and work to make the course welcoming. Everyone likes to play different courses from time to time. Just remember that when you do you too are a visitor and are probably putting someones nose out of joint.

 

[Hacker Khan]

I we charge over £100 for a visitor green fee

Eye carumba

 

[patricks148]

Eye carumba

Sorry make that £115 at the weekend and Dornoch is the same.

 

[Hacker Khan]

Sorry make that £115 at the weekend and Dornoch is the same.

eye eye eye carumba

 

[patricks148]

I would love to play your track as I love links golf and am aware of the history of your club and it's place in the history of the game - unfortunately (for me) I just am not willing to pay or could actually justify paying £100 for the pleasure. But I guess your club isn't bothered about me - which is a pity.

You can play a Twighlight round at Nairn for around half that and thats after 1PM in the middle of Summer. Royal Dornoch's is after 5 i think and unless you play on the longest day you would struggle to get round.

 

[Foxholer]

I would love to play your track as I love links golf and am aware of the history of your club and it's place in the history of the game - unfortunately (for me) I just am not willing to pay or could actually justify paying £100 for the pleasure. But I guess your club isn't bothered about me - which is a pity.

Any relatively historic Club would be aware of the desire of other Golfers to play their course. It's a question of managing demand, and cost is one of the tools. And many Scottish such clubs have a vastly different rate for Guests (token, in the expectation that the hospitality will be returned) as opposed to Visitors (where a Market Rate is applied)!