Pre-shot digging... allowed or not?

[vkurup]

Played with someone a few weeks ago. He had a strange habit. Before his shot, aligns himself, picks his line and then makes a small indentation on ground about a foot in front of the ball with is club. A bit like a cricketer taking his guard. He uses that line on the ground to square up his address.

Strange, but whatever works for him. The indentation is not in the swing path or altering the lie of the ball.. Question is.. is it legal?

 

[Foxholer]

Does seem possibly/likely to be a breach of 14-3a - unusual use of equipment in order to assist him making a stroke!

Did you ask him why he did it? And had he been pulled on it before?

 

[duncan mackie]

Question is.. is it legal?

no 1-2

1-2. Exerting Influence on Movement of Ball or Altering Physical Conditions

A player must not (i) take an action with the intent to influence the movement of a ball in play or (ii) alter physical conditions with the intent of affecting the playing of a hole.

the same would apply to placing anything as an indicator of his chosen line, including a leaf, twig, tee peg or beer can.

 

[Deano23]

Defo out of order.

 

[vkurup]

no 1-2

1-2. Exerting Influence on Movement of Ball or Altering Physical Conditions

A player must not (i) take an action with the intent to influence the movement of a ball in play or (ii) alter physical conditions with the intent of affecting the playing of a hole.

the same would apply to placing anything as an indicator of his chosen line, including a leaf, twig, tee peg or beer can.

Interesting.. but the indentation is a almost not in his swing's 'sphere of influence'.. So I was assumption is that nothing worth in it.

He is a hack and the line on the ground had no correlation where the ball finished :rofl: Hence I guess no one ever took exception to him..

 

[la_lucha]

no 1-2

1-2. Exerting Influence on Movement of Ball or Altering Physical Conditions

A player must not (i) take an action with the intent to influence the movement of a ball in play or (ii) alter physical conditions with the intent of affecting the playing of a hole.

the same would apply to placing anything as an indicator of his chosen line, including a leaf, twig, tee peg or beer can.

So i could stick a tee in the ground ahead of my ball to indicate my line and this is legal?

 

[User20205]

I read as breaking 8.2 indicating line of play,

you can mark the line of play, but it must be removed before a stroke is made.

Pretty hard if its a gouge in the ground, but nothing stopping you from using something already there.

 

[Darlophil]

no 1-2

1-2. Exerting Influence on Movement of Ball or Altering Physical Conditions

A player must not (i) take an action with the intent to influence the movement of a ball in play or (ii) alter physical conditions with the intent of affecting the playing of a hole.

the same would apply to placing anything as an indicator of his chosen line, including a leaf, twig, tee peg or beer can.

Pardon my naivety, but wouldn't a marked line (with a sharpie for instance) on the ball also count as this? after all those of us that do it aren't using it as an identification process, but to aid/influence the (alignment of) putting stroke.

 

[woody69]

is this a duplicate thread? Mentioned the same in the other, i.e. breach of 8-2a

 

[duncan mackie]

So i could stick a tee in the ground ahead of my ball to indicate my line and this is legal?

I thought I went out of my way to state that it wouldn't be.....

you have 1-2 for changing physical conditions (as here)
you have 8-2 if you are adding something solely to indicate line of play (such as a tee peg)
you have 13-2 if the action physically affects along the line of play (which wouldn't really apply here.

 

[vkurup]

is this a duplicate thread? Mentioned the same in the other, i.e. breach of 8-2a

The idea was to have 2 seperate threads..
this thread to discuss if my PP had breached the rule
the other thread was to hear what have others seen (but that is getting hijacked by legalities too)

 

[duncan mackie]

Pardon my naivety, but wouldn't a marked line (with a sharpie for instance) on the ball also count as this? after all those of us that do it aren't using it as an identification process, but to aid/influence the (alignment of) putting stroke.

it's a good question but you are aligning an already existing mark rather than placing something as mark to indicate the line of play. Nothing in the rules prevents you from doing this on the tee or on the putting green (or at any other time you are placing your ball under the rules)

it's the corollary of teeing your ball directly behind an existing mark (divot, discarded tee peg etc) to indicate your line - perfectly acceptable; you just can't add one!

 

[atticusfinch]

you have 1-2 for changing physical conditions (as here)

I disagree. 1-2 is intended to prohibit such action that might influence the movement of the ball, like deflecting it or eliminating an obstacle. The marks in this case were made to indicate the line of play. 8-2a

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I read as breaking 8.2 indicating line of play,

you can mark the line of play, but it must be removed before a stroke is made.

Pretty hard if its a gouge in the ground, but nothing stopping you from using something already there.

I would certainly see it as contravening that rule

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I disagree. 1-2 is intended to prohibit such action that might influence the movement of the ball, like deflecting it or eliminating an obstacle. The marks in this case were made to indicate the line of play. 8-2a

But digging a hole in the ground in front of your ball could influence the movement of your ball - take to extreme you make a big dent and then you nearly miss your ball and it rolls forward and bounces into or off the dent you have made. Influenced.

 

[atticusfinch]

But digging a hole in the ground in front of your ball could influence the movement of your ball - take to extreme you make a big dent and then you nearly miss your ball and it rolls forward and bounces into or off the dent you have made. Influenced.

Rule 1-2 requires the intent to influence, if that is your intent then it would be a breach. Incidental influence, no breach.

 

[Sid Rixon IV]

no 1-2

1-2. Exerting Influence on Movement of Ball or Altering Physical Conditions

A player must not (i) take an action with the intent to influence the movement of a ball in play or (ii) alter physical conditions with the intent of affecting the playing of a hole.

the same would apply to placing anything as an indicator of his chosen line, including a leaf, twig, tee peg or beer can.

So when putting I have to put my can of Special Brew down somewhere behind me?

 

[Colin L]

Rule 8-2a does not cover making and leaving a dent in the ground. it only refers to a "mark placed by the player or with his knowledge to indicate the line" and that it "must be removed before the stroke is made". A dent in the ground is not a mark that is placed nor something that can be removed.

There is another bit in Rule 1-2 to just influencing the movement of the ball, like deflecting it or eliminating an obstacle. The player must not

(ii) alter physical conditions with the intent of affecting the playing of a hole.

That's the bit Duncan refers us to. The dent in in the ground which the player uses to line up his shot is clearly intended to affect his playing of the hole by keeping his ball on target. Even if the shot is badly executed, that was his intention.

 

[atticusfinch]

Where does it say the mark placed cannot be made in the ground? If it is removed before the shot the rule is satisfied. I do not think your conclusions is supported by the rule.

How does the mark affect the play of the hole? Rule 8-2 prohibits what you are referring to . There is no need to stretch 1-2 to get that result. IMHO

 

[Colin L]

To me it is the word placed. You cannot place a dent in the ground. It is not an object that can be put down.

The player who makes a dent in the ground in order to give him a line to is affecting his play of the hole by helping him to aim at his target and to make a more effective shot.