Power lines

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jim8flog

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E-11 Ball Deflected by Power Line

A player plays his tee shot there is nothing to make hit or another player believe he has hit a power line (i.e. known or virtually certain).

When the player gets to his ball.

1.There is now reasonable belief but still not not known to be certain that the player hit the power line (I am not concerned with other possible reasons for the question). Must the player return to the tee to hit another shot or is that now out of the question as (a) it is not known or certain or (b) the player should have made the decision from the tee.

2. It is now known and certain, because of the type of mark on the ball, that the player hit the wire. Must the player return to the tee and it again.
 

Colin L

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1 He doesn’t have to decide on the tee but without virtual certainty the stroke can’t be cancelled.
2. Yes, assuming it was the ball that hit the wire. 😀
 
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jim8flog

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My next question in the sequence.

The player finds his ball in a place whereby he has obviously hit something and a mark can be seen on the ball. In the area the ball would have been in flight there are other obstacles such as trees and there could be articles on the ground.

Whilst there is a high probability that what he hit was the power cable. Would he fail the 'virtually certain' part of the rule?
 

wjemather

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Given the diameter of such cables, and irrespective of any mark on the ball (all kinds of things can leave marks), if a ball has not been seen to hit the cables or be deflected, the occurrence should only be considered a possibility, not a high probability, and definitely not "virtually certain".
 

salfordlad

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Given the diameter of such cables, and irrespective of any mark on the ball (all kinds of things can leave marks), if a ball has not been seen to hit the cables or be deflected, the occurrence should only be considered a possibility, not a high probability, and definitely not "virtually certain".
Agree. If there is only one object that could mark the ball, KVC could be alive and well. More than one object in the same area, not a chance of KVC it was the power line unless the contact was directly witnessed.
 

Steve Wilkes

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Given the diameter of such cables, and irrespective of any mark on the ball (all kinds of things can leave marks), if a ball has not been seen to hit the cables or be deflected, the occurrence should only be considered a possibility, not a high probability, and definitely not "virtually certain".
I agree, A mark on the ball should not be used as reasonable evidence that it must have hit the lines it not seen. I think the distance is a more evidential, if you walk down the fairway and the ball in 160 yards from the tee when you knew it should be 235 plus, that would be good enough evidence for me
 

wjemather

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There is also the chance of there being a mark on the ball prior to the stroke, or the ball becoming marked during impact or on contact with an unseen object.
 
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jim8flog

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Given the diameter of such cables, and irrespective of any mark on the ball (all kinds of things can leave marks), if a ball has not been seen to hit the cables or be deflected, the occurrence should only be considered a possibility, not a high probability, and definitely not "virtually certain".
Given the layout it is a high probability hence my choice of wording.
 
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jim8flog

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I agree, A mark on the ball should not be used as reasonable evidence that it must have hit the lines it not seen. I think the distance is a more evidential, if you walk down the fairway and the ball in 160 yards from the tee when you knew it should be 235 plus, that would be good enough evidence for me
I would disagree with that. Although distance was a factor hitting a tree would just as easily account for the difference in distance. It was not ball struck down the fairway but just slightly off.
 
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jim8flog

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Given the diameter of such cables, and irrespective of any mark on the ball (all kinds of things can leave marks), if a ball has not been seen to hit the cables or be deflected, the occurrence should only be considered a possibility, not a high probability, and definitely not "virtually certain".
I would add - do not think cables the size of the the ones you get on pylons think the size of ones that you get feeding a a group of dwellings (we are in the country with a lot of overhead power lines that feed a few houses) are only about house height above the course.

Going back to the original question some of the cables are sheaved in a particular outer layer which leaves a very distinctive mark/colouring on the ball.
 

wjemather

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I would add - do not think cables the size of the the ones you get on pylons think the size of ones that you get feeding a a group of dwellings (we are in the country with a lot of overhead power lines that feed a few houses) are only about house height above the course.

Going back to the original question some of the cables are sheaved in a particular outer layer which leaves a very distinctive mark/colouring on the ball.
See #8. I really don't think any assumptions can be made if nothing has been seen.

I would disagree with that. Although distance was a factor hitting a tree would just as easily account for the difference in distance. It was not ball struck down the fairway but just slightly off.
Cables this height are not going to make any significant difference to the distance hit (unless players are hitting a 20 foot high stingers), so it would be impossible to use this as a factor when making a judgement.
 
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jim8flog

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Cables this height are not going to make any significant difference to the distance hit (unless players are hitting a 20 foot high stingers), so it would be impossible to use this as a factor when making a judgement.
They really can as their distance from the tee is such that that the ball is often still rising or at its apex for a very large number of players. Having hit them many times in all the years I have played here I now from personal experience it can be as much as 100 yards.
 

wjemather

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They really can as their distance from the tee is such that that the ball is often still rising or at its apex for a very large number of players. Having hit them many times in all the years I have played here I now from personal experience it can be as much as 100 yards.
Surely if the ball is still rising then you would be able to see/hear it hit the cables?
 
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jim8flog

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Jim
Could you maybe let us know what is actually behind your questions, give us the full picture?
The questions have been answered to my satisfaction really and passed on to the player to confirm what I said to him at the time. He was my partner in a 4BBB and I know sometimes he tries it on. Ball was in a pretty poor lie and he was trying to find someway of getting out of it.

It was mainly Q2 answered by you in post 2 that I was unsure of.

I did not want to give the full picture to start with to hopefully get answers to the question asked rather than a lot of the conjecture that has gone on since.
 
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jim8flog

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Surely if the ball is still rising then you would be able to see/hear it hit the cables?
If we had heard or seen it hit the cable in the first place then the questions would not have been posed. I think that would be obvious.
 

Colin L

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The questions have been answered to my satisfaction really and passed on to the player to confirm what I said to him at the time. He was my partner in a 4BBB and I know sometimes he tries it on. Ball was in a pretty poor lie and he was trying to find someway of getting out of it.

It was mainly Q2 answered by you in post 2 that I was unsure of.

I did not want to give the full picture to start with to hopefully get answers to the question asked rather than a lot of the conjecture that has gone on since.
Conjecture? In this forum? Surely not. :)
 
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