Please help me understand SSS

[dejf]

Hi,

I thought SSS is pretty easy to understand, but I am in doubt now.

From what I thought SSS is, the following statements should be true. Let's assume we have course par 72 with SSS = 69 from yellow tees:

• The course is easier to play than some kind of standard/average difficulty.
• A true scratch player is expected to score 69 on the course under standard conditions.
• If there are more tees to play from and one tees are significantly harder to play from than the other, their SSS should be different.
• If I regularly play 80 on this course from yellows, my handicap would be around 11.

I am made the statements simple (and thus a bit of incorrect here and there), so I know they are not perfect, the idea was just to summarize how I roughly understand SSS. Is there any thing wrong with my understanding? Are there any major problems in my understanding?

 

[pbrown7582]

no all is pretty much correct with what you say.

GM have posted an article about it recently I think it was yesterday.

 

[garyinderry]

What is making you doubt it?

 

[Deleted member 15717]

Hi,

I thought SSS is pretty easy to understand, but I am in doubt now.

From what I thought SSS is, the following statements should be true. Let's assume we have course par 72 with SSS = 69 from yellow tees:

• The course is easier to play than some kind of standard/average difficulty.
• A true scratch player is expected to score 69 on the course under standard conditions.
• If there are more tees to play from and one tees are significantly harder to play from than the other, their SSS should be different.
• If I regularly play 80 on this course from yellows, my handicap would be around 11.

I am made the statements simple (and thus a bit of incorrect here and there), so I know they are not perfect, the idea was just to summarize how I roughly understand SSS. Is there any thing wrong with my understanding? Are there any major problems in my understanding?

Tat about nails it for SSS. CSS is where complications arise! Ultimately, never think about CSS when in a competition, and play to SSS, and you can't go far wrong!

 

[dejf]

The problem I have is that today I have played Ruislip golf course and I have received this score card, where White tees have PAR 69 and SSS 66, but Yellow have ALSO PAR 69 and SSS 66.

I do not understand this, because I clearly saw on the course, that it makes a big difference between the different tees. Not rarely the difference was over 20 yards, and for example hole 14 is par 3 with 40 yards difference, or hole 3 is par 4 with 50 yards difference.

So I really do not understand how SSS can be 66 for both tees. If I would want to set/improve my handicap and could choose which tees to play, I would obviously choose yellows, because I would achieve a better score there for sure. There would be no point for me to ever play from whites there.

If my understanding of SSS is correct, can anyone explain this?

 

[Region3]

From what I understand, the assessors have charts showing how far on average this mythical scratch player would hit the ball with each club, along with the margin for error with each club.

As well as the length of the holes/course, the proximity of hazards to the landing areas also have a bearing.

Maybe it has a lot of hazards that are more in play from the yellow tees than the whites?

 

[Doh]

Could be because even off the whites the course is not very long, it's only a thought.

 

[Ethan]

The problem I have is that today I have played Ruislip golf course and I have received this score card, where White tees have PAR 69 and SSS 66, but Yellow have ALSO PAR 69 and SSS 66.

I do not understand this, because I clearly saw on the course, that it makes a big difference between the different tees. Not rarely the difference was over 20 yards, and for example hole 14 is par 3 with 40 yards difference, or hole 3 is par 4 with 50 yards difference.

So I really do not understand how SSS can be 66 for both tees. If I would want to set/improve my handicap and could choose which tees to play, I would obviously choose yellows, because I would achieve a better score there for sure. There would be no point for me to ever play from whites there.

If my understanding of SSS is correct, can anyone explain this?

On some courses the tees don't vary that much. Perhaps the course is really a SSS 65.5 off the fronts and 66.4 off the backs but both round to 66. But the CSS is probably more likely to go up off the backs than the fronts.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

From what I understand, the assessors have charts showing how far on average this mythical scratch player would hit the ball with each club, along with the margin for error with each club.

As well as the length of the holes/course, the proximity of hazards to the landing areas also have a bearing.

Maybe it has a lot of hazards that are more in play from the yellow tees than the whites?

iirc it's 260 yard carry with the driver

 

[duncan mackie]

The problem I have is that today I have played Ruislip golf course and I have received this score card, where White tees have PAR 69 and SSS 66, but Yellow have ALSO PAR 69 and SSS 66.

I do not understand this, because I clearly saw on the course, that it makes a big difference between the different tees. Not rarely the difference was over 20 yards, and for example hole 14 is par 3 with 40 yards difference, or hole 3 is par 4 with 50 yards difference.

So I really do not understand how SSS can be 66 for both tees. If I would want to set/improve my handicap and could choose which tees to play, I would obviously choose yellows, because I would achieve a better score there for sure. There would be no point for me to ever play from whites there.

If my understanding of SSS is correct, can anyone explain this?

Your understanding is correct; what's up at Ruislip is another thing.

I can find cards showing an SSS of 67 for the whites at 5571, and 66 for the yellows at 5300 odd - so your perception of the difference in distance is also reflected in this.
Once upon a time there were also blue tees at SSS 68 and about 5700 yds but they probably haven't been maintained.

Why it's showing at 66 for the whites on your scorecard could be down to an error somewhere.

 

[dejf]

Thank you guys, all your explanations sound good to me. So possibly a combination of all these factors you have mentioned results in what I have seen today.

I also think that quite a few yellow tees I saw today were not in their spot - they were closer to red tees, closer to the hole. So when the card says there should be 10 yards difference, there was 20 for example. On the other hand, all whites were pushed to the back.

 

[Foxholer]

One other thing to note....

If you are shooting 80 regularly on a SSS 69 course, your handicap should more likely be a bit lower than 11 - more likely about 8!

In developing a formula to highlight candidates for highlighting at Annual review, Congu stats show 'best fit' line on 10000 results shows the formula for score expectation is (Handicap) * 1.237 +1.57 - with the anomolies being those folk more than 3 shots away from that. This formula doesn't indicate that thereis anything wrong with the Handicap (and/as it's 'relative' metric anyway), simply a reflection of the effects of Buffer and the difference in how folk go up or come down at different rates (always 0.1 if outside buffer or 'Category' * difference on reduction!

 

[dejf]

One other thing to note....

If you are shooting 80 regularly on a SSS 69 course, your handicap should more likely be a bit lower than 11 - more likely about 8!

In developing a formula to highlight candidates for highlighting at Annual review, Congu stats show 'best fit' line on 10000 results shows the formula for score expectation is (Handicap) * 1.237 +1.57 - with the anomolies being those folk more than 3 shots away from that. This formula doesn't indicate that thereis anything wrong with the Handicap (and/as it's 'relative' metric anyway), simply a reflection of the effects of Buffer and the difference in how folk go up or come down at different rates (always 0.1 if outside buffer or 'Category' * difference on reduction!

Interesting, did not know that. My Congu HCP knowledge is weak
EGA does not work like that at all.

But you mention it is expectation based on 10000 results, so what is the real formula/algorithm there?

 

[fundy]

Our current cards show both our whites and yellows as par 72 sss 72. The yellow sss is actually fictional (and has been for many years) as until very recently it had never been measured or evaluated for sss. I believe we'll find out soon what it actually is and will be getting new cards. Wouldnt be surprised if this is the same for some other courses

 

[Foxholer]

Interesting, did not know that. My Congu HCP knowledge is weak
EGA does not work like that at all.

But you mention it is expectation based on 10000 results, so what is the real formula/algorithm there?

My post was based on 'reversing' the logic of this document - that discussed the Annual Review. http://www.congu.com/faqs/old_site/Review of Handicaps.pdf

Congu have access to (or may even control) the Central Database of Handicaps which logs every competition and score. This provides a vast amount of info that can be analysed, one such exercise resulting in that formula.

 

[pbrown7582]

Something you touched briefly on was where the markers are set on a given day is not necessarily the same place as the stones for the measured coursers which the SSS will have been set.