Please help me clarify Rule 19-2

[Hooker]

Discussion in clubhouse yesterday about penalty as someone had hit shot from rough and ball somehow popped up and hit him. Couple of chaps agreed it was 2 shot penaly, I looked it up Rule 19-2 on my iphone and piped up its 1 shot penalty. However saw an article later from 2011 that suggested it was a 2 shot penalty? Has the rule on this been changed?

Funnily enough in our winter pairs today, one of our opponents was chipping out of the rough onto the green and hit his partner in the backside! I wasnt sure about the penalty but asked would that mean a loss of hole for them? Or if that just meant the hitter was out of the hole. They ascertained that just the hitter was "out" by which he meant that he had already taken 3 shots to get on the green and his partner was on in 1. Not that he was out because he had a penalty.

Anyway they ignored our protestations and we carried on no.

We asked the manager who is also a pro and she said its loss of hole when we got back.

On further reading the rule when I got home I read it both ways as 1 stroke penalty again. But at the end of the chapter 19-2 it says :-

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE:
Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes.

Which suggests otherwise?


Please can someone help me clarify this.

Thanks

 

[palindromicbob]

Discussion in clubhouse yesterday about penalty as someone had hit shot from rough and ball somehow popped up and hit him. Couple of chaps agreed it was 2 shot penaly, I looked it up Rule 19-2 on my iphone and piped up its 1 shot penalty. However saw an article later from 2011 that suggested it was a 2 shot penalty? Has the rule on this been changed?

Funnily enough in our winter pairs today, one of our opponents was chipping out of the rough onto the green and hit his partner in the backside! I wasnt sure about the penalty but asked would that mean a loss of hole for them? Or if that just meant the hitter was out of the hole. They ascertained that just the hitter was "out" by which he meant that he had already taken 3 shots to get on the green and his partner was on in 1. Not that he was out because he had a penalty.

Anyway they ignored our protestations and we carried on no.

We asked the manager who is also a pro and she said its loss of hole when we got back.

On further reading the rule when I got home I read it both ways as 1 stroke penalty again. But at the end of the chapter 19-2 it says :-

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE:
Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes.

Which suggests otherwise?


Please can someone help me clarify this.

Thanks

1 stroke penalty for the ball hitting the player, partner, his equipment or caddy.

2 Stroke penalty. loss of hole is only if the rule is breeched.

For example, shot played lands on your coat that had been taken off and placed on the ground in the rough. That's a one stroke penalty because the ball was deflected/stopped by your equipment. It just so happens that the lie of the ball on the coat is quiet good and possibility better than it would have been if the coat were not there so you play it off the coat. That's a 2 stroke penalty/loss of hole for breech of 19-2 which requires that you must take take a drop from the equipment.

Now if that coat had belonged to an FC or had been dropped by a group ahead then you could have played the shot from it or taken relief under 24-1.


In your example the player that struck the ball incurs a one stroke penalty for hit his partner. Doesn't appear to have breeched the rule from the info you give so no automatic loss of hole and his partner can continue on. The manager/pro was wrong.

I do find this is an area of the rules which has gathered many myths. I was playing with a juvenile who thinned a shot across the green on the par 3 17th and hit my bag bouncing back onto the green about 5 foot from the hole. I was laughing and told him that it was his lucky day (he had 37 points at this stage). He proceeded to kick his ball off the green and I was stunned. Asked him why and he said that he couldn't score on the hole as he didn't have a shot and the 2 stroke penalty meant he would be putting for a 5.

When I asked him where he had been told that he said it had happened before when he was playing and hit the bag of a senior member in the group ahead of him. I advised him that it wasn't the case and it wasn't a penalty at all but the whole thing messed his head up and he proceeded to blank the 18th and finished on the 37 points. Advised him to get himself a rule book and query every ruling he comes across in future because his taking someones word for it had not only cost him a cut (CSS was 37) but also a possible win.

 

[Hooker]

Thanks for your reply, thats kind of how I am reading it at the moment. Although I was getting more and more confused reading around the subject on t'internet!

Anyone else care to agree/disagree?

Thanks

 

[rosecott]

Just to add that the current rules apply to 2012-2015 so that the mention of a 2-stroke penalty from 2011 no longer applies.

 

[Hooker]

Just to add that the current rules apply to 2012-2015 so that the mention of a 2-stroke penalty from 2011 no longer applies.

Thanks, so the rule has changed then! No wonder lots of people confused!

 

[Foxholer]

FWIW. Rule was same in previous version (2008-2011 inclusive).

P'Bob is spot on! :thup:

 

[Hooker]

Thanks again, i seem to be reading the rulebook correctly most of the time. But then get confused when I read or hear further opinions from other people/articles!

 

[palindromicbob]

Thanks again, i seem to be reading the rulebook correctly most of the time. But then get confused when I read or hear further opinions from other people/articles!

A bit of confusion can happen due to the mixing up breach of rule section with the penalties given under a rule.

 

[rulefan]

This is what it says today.

19-2. By Player, Partner, Caddie Or Equipment

If a player’s ball is accidentally deflected or stopped by himself, his partner or either of their caddies or equipment, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke.
The ball must be played as it lies, except when it comes to rest in or on the player’s, his partner’s or either of their caddies’ clothes or equipment, in which case the ball must through the green or in a hazard be dropped, or on the putting green be placed, as near as possible to the spot directly under the place where the ball came to rest in or on the article, but not nearer the hole.

The general penalty of 2 stroke or loss of hole apply if any of the requirements after the words in red are not followed.

 

[duncan mackie]

FWIW. Rule was same in previous version (2008-2011 inclusive).

P'Bob is spot on! :thup:

Indeed - it changed in that version with the penalty in the previous version (2004) being 2 shots/loss of hole.

Many people will argue for hours on this one because they are so sure that they were right......

 

[Region3]

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE:
Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes.

Just because I think that sometimes people take this too literally, as far as I know any loss of hole penalty in a better ball matchplay tie just means the penalised is out of the hole, not that his team automatically loses the hole.

 

[duncan mackie]

Just because I think that sometimes people take this too literally, as far as I know any loss of hole penalty in a better ball matchplay tie just means the penalised is out of the hole, not that his team automatically loses the hole.

A side is penalized for a breach of any of the following by any partner:

Rule 4 Clubs
Rule 6-4 Caddie
Any Local Rule or Condition of Competition for which the penalty is an adjustment to the state of the match

A side is disqualified if any partner incurs a penalty of disqualification under any of the following:

Rule 1-3 Agreement to Waive Rules
Rule 4 Clubs
Rule 5-1 or 5-2 The Ball
Rule 6-2a Handicap
Rule 6-4 Caddie
Rule 6-7 Undue Delay; Slow Play
Rule 11-1 Teeing
Rule 14-3 Artificial Devices, Unusual Equipment and Unusual Use of Equipment
Rule 33-7 Disqualification Penalty Imposed by Committee

Not forgetting that any breach that results in assistance to a partner will result in his being DQ from the hole.

 

[Hooker]

Thank you all for your help it isn't easy when rules are changed. People don't like to complicate the game with rules most of the time as it is. But even though I worry about coming across a bit of a pedant I think it's important to keep everyone updated and it's definitely a advantage when you know them.

 

[Region3]

A side is penalized for a breach of any of the following by any partner:

Rule 4 Clubs
Rule 6-4 Caddie
Any Local Rule or Condition of Competition for which the penalty is an adjustment to the state of the match

A side is disqualified if any partner incurs a penalty of disqualification under any of the following:

Rule 1-3 Agreement to Waive Rules
Rule 4 Clubs
Rule 5-1 or 5-2 The Ball
Rule 6-2a Handicap
Rule 6-4 Caddie
Rule 6-7 Undue Delay; Slow Play
Rule 11-1 Teeing
Rule 14-3 Artificial Devices, Unusual Equipment and Unusual Use of Equipment
Rule 33-7 Disqualification Penalty Imposed by Committee

Not forgetting that any breach that results in assistance to a partner will result in his being DQ from the hole.

Was I right for the quotation I included, ie any penalties that would be a 2 stroke penalty in strokeplay?

 

[duncan mackie]

Was I right for the quotation I included, ie any penalties that would be a 2 stroke penalty in strokeplay?

very close - but no cigar

as an example; if one partner teed off on the 1st with 15 clubs in his bag and then resolved the matter he would have a 2 shot penalty in stroke play - but the side would lose the hole in a 4BBB match.

I agree that generally a penalty of "2 shots or loss of hole in matchplay" will just apply to the player concerned, but the details are listed under Rule 30, as are the other relevant rulings on this form of play.

 

[Region3]

very close - but no cigar

as an example; if one partner teed off on the 1st with 15 clubs in his bag and then resolved the matter he would have a 2 shot penalty in stroke play - but the side would lose the hole in a 4BBB match.

I agree that generally a penalty of "2 shots or loss of hole in matchplay" will just apply to the player concerned, but the details are listed under Rule 30, as are the other relevant rulings on this form of play.

Thanks for clearing that up.

My intentions were good