Playing a provisional ball when previous ball thought to be lost in a water hazard

[berniethebolt]

A fellow competitor - a scratch player - in a fourball played his second shot on a par 5 to a green with a pond in front. He hit it heavy and we all saw it splash into the water (we were nearly 200 yards from the water). He dropped another ball and hit it onto the green. However on looking for his first ball in the water he found it had skipped out and was on the far bank. He then played this ball and holed out with it. We were unsure as to whether this was correct as:
1. His second ball would seem not to be a provisional ball as from the definition a provisional is a ball played for a ball that may be lost outside a water hazard and we all thought his ball was lost in a water hazard.
2. Appendix 1 Local rules 2b seems to allow the Club to make a local rule that permits a provisional ball to be played in these circumstances rather than ascertaining whether the ball has in fact been lost in the water hazard (our Club has no such rule). That such a local rule may be required seems to imply that one must ascertain whether the ball is lost in the water hazard before proceeding.
These would suggest that the second ball he played became the ball in play and he should have continued with it. Am I misunderstanding something?

 

[PhilTheFragger]

A fellow competitor - a scratch player - in a fourball played his second shot on a par 5 to a green with a pond in front. He hit it heavy and we all saw it splash into the water (we were nearly 200 yards from the water). He dropped another ball and hit it onto the green. However on looking for his first ball in the water he found it had skipped out and was on the far bank. He then played this ball and holed out with it. We were unsure as to whether this was correct as:
1. His second ball would seem not to be a provisional ball as from the definition a provisional is a ball played for a ball that may be lost outside a water hazard and we all thought his ball was lost in a water hazard.
2. Appendix 1 Local rules 2b seems to allow the Club to make a local rule that permits a provisional ball to be played in these circumstances rather than ascertaining whether the ball has in fact been lost in the water hazard (our Club has no such rule). That such a local rule may be required seems to imply that one must ascertain whether the ball is lost in the water hazard before proceeding.
These would suggest that the second ball he played became the ball in play and he should have continued with it. Am I misunderstanding something?

Did he declare his second ball as a provisional?

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Why didn’t take the drop 200yds further up behind the pond, ie point of entry.
Did he state he was playing a provisional or simply put another ball in play?

 

[berniethebolt]

He did not declare the second ball a provisional. As to why he did not move to the pond I do not know, he simply dropped a ball and hit it - irritation perhaps!

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I think once the 2nd ball has hit the ground it becomes the ball in play and he should proceed with that ball.

 

[berniethebolt]

Should have said that there is 50 yards of rough in front of the pond and 100 yards before that slopes quite steeply. He probably felt he had a better shot from where he was.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Should have said that there is 50 yards of rough in front of the pond and 100 yards before that slopes quite steeply. He probably felt he had a better shot from where he was.

He certainly has the option to do what he did, I just wandered why? Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Colin L]

Unless the player thought his ball might be lost somewhere other than in the water hazard, he was not allowed to play a provisional. From what is described, he believed his ball was in the hazard, and so he dropped a ball under stroke and distance (27-1a}. It was in play as soon as he dropped it, thereby making his original ball "lost". When he found his original ball it was just like any other other stray ball he might have found and by playing it he played a wrong ball with a 2 stroke penalty and was required to continue play with his ball in play (15-3). As he did not hole out with the correct ball, he has no score for the hole. See Decision 15-5.
http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-15,d15-5

 

[rulie]

He did not declare the second ball a provisional. As to why he did not move to the pond I do not know, he simply dropped a ball and hit it - irritation perhaps!

Based on the facts that you have provided, he was not playing a provisional (no declaration and no a valid reason) and Colin's ruling is right on the mark.

 

[berniethebolt]

Thank you Colin (and rulie)

 

[Imurg]

And the moral of the story is...
Just because someone is good at something it doesn't mean they always do things correctly.....

 

[KenL]

And the moral of the story is...
Just because someone is good at something it doesn't mean they always do things correctly.....

So true. Often good players are less aware of the rules than most of us.
Saw a young pro playing at our club pick a ball up off a tee as he thought he had to take relief.

 

[berniethebolt]

As a followup, under the new rules coming next month, I understand that water hazards (and similar areas designated by the Committee) become penalty areas. New rule 17.1 seems to suggest that the same regulation applies i.e. a provisional ball can be played except if the original ball is lost in a penalty area with the same criteria for 'lost'. Is this correct?

 

[bernix]

has anybody an explanation why you must not play a provisional ball in case your ball is likely lost in a penalty area?
let's assume my ball is likely but not certain lost in a PA (it might have cleared the water). now i must not play a provisional, search for my ball and in case i cannot find it, head back and ply 3 off the tee. in case i find it inside the PA, i will head back to the tee as well and play my 3rd shot, only if i find it outside the PA, i will play it as it lies.
why can't i play a provisional, declaring that, in case i find my ball inside the PA, to use my provisional

 

[Colin L]

Firstly, you are misunderstanding the rule when you say you must not play a provisional if your ball is likely but not certain to be lost in a water hazard/penalty area. If there is not certainty - i.e. your ball could be lost somewhere else, you can and indeed should play a provisional.

It makes no difference whether you find your ball in a water hazard or not - the relief options are the same. If you know or are virtually certain that your ball is in a water hazard, your choices as to how to proceed include playing from the same spot you have just played from. If you do play from that spot, you have taken relief from the water hazard and it cannot be a provisional ball no matter what you say. A provisional ball is to save time when your ball might be lost anywhere else i.e where there is no choice but to take stroke and distance for a lost ball or a ball out of bounds.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Screen shot from 2019 Rules

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The OP question and Colin's ruling are for me what is great about the forum. A great reminder of a rule easily forgotten.

I forgot that I cannot play a provisional ball if I know that my ball has gone in a water hazard.

On reflection on when it has happened to me, I think I do know that - I just forgot.

But my immediate response to the OP scenario was that playing the provisional was OK, and as he then found his original the provisional was irrelevant. As Colin reminded us - that was wrong.

 

[Colin L]

Your appreciation is appreciated.

 

[bernix]

as pauldj42 pointed out, i was aware that the only place my ball could be lost was in a penalty area. if it was lost (or found) inside the penalty area, i was sure that i would take the option to replay from the tee. in this case i found it illogic not to play a provisional although i was aware that i was not alowed to

 

[duncan mackie]

as pauldj42 pointed out, i was aware that the only place my ball could be lost was in a penalty area. if it was lost (or found) inside the penalty area, i was sure that i would take the option to replay from the tee. in this case i found it illogic not to play a provisional although i was aware that i was not alowed to

I understand what you are saying. The answer to your specific question lies in the expectation that if the water hazard (penalty area) is any distance from your position when playing the shot you would wish to chose to play from there if you subsequently establish that your ball is in it. Generally the nearer the area the more certainty on where the shot finished (in the situation you describe).
If there are issues with the course management that lead to such a choice (bad rough everywhere that a player may be able to take relief) then the course managers should implement change e.g. move the margin markers!
If uncertainty exists from the tee, but because of the layout everything becomes clear when you arrive, a local rule may currently be implemented to permit such a provisional option, and that option remains going forwards by implementing Model Local Rule B3. Under that rule the player gains one additional option in that if he finds his ball in the penalty area he is able to play it, or play his provisional.
As such it's not a great rule (because one of the underlying premises of the rules is that players shouldn't gain such options against known outcomes) but there are some situations where it has merit.
If you read the MLR it explains things well.