Nil Returns and WHS

[IanM]

Sorry this is done elsewhere, I haven't been able to find it...

Under the old system, if you NR'd for whatever reason you got a 0.1 increase in handicap.

What happens now? Two of the guys I played with on Saturday didnt key their scores into the App. (we are not returning cards) One said he plain forgot (and I believe him as he is a bit dozy at times) the other said, it was a bad score so not going to be challenging for anything.

What happens to their playing records? Is it nothing, but they might face a sanction if they persist?

 

[Old Skier]

Sorry this is done elsewhere, I haven't been able to find it...

Under the old system, if you NR'd for whatever reason you got a 0.1 increase in handicap.

What happens now? Two of the guys I played with on Saturday didnt key their scores into the App. (we are not returning cards) One said he plain forgot (and I believe him as he is a bit dozy at times) the other said, it was a bad score so not going to be challenging for anything.

What happens to their playing records? Is it nothing, but they might face a sanction if they persist?

All cards must be returned, failing to do so can result in the HC committee adding scores to the worth of nett par which as apposed to going up could result in the player going down. Hopefully the NR has been noted and whatever the appropriate action decided by the HC committee will have been completed.

We have warned all our members of the possible consequences of NR’s.

In one of the threads there is a whole load of posts on the issue. Will, “try” and find it later but I have meetings most of the day.

 

[IanM]

Thanks, you've confirmed my understanding. We've had no messages about sanctions, consequences etc. By "returning cards" you mean "keying in" as no cards are handed in under Covid Regs.

I'll ask when I am at the club on Saturday. I suspect it is too early in the process (due to lockdowns) for the ripples to reach the edge.

 

[jim8flog]

We used to take a note of those not returning cards and introduced sanctions which at the extreme was loss of handicap for a month.

Handicap committees are supposed to chase up non returned cards and if the score can be established record it. As per Old Skier penalty scores can be imposed.

 

[Bdill93]

If you NR at my club you get given a score of 120 in the system which does carry through to your EG app. This is purely for those who walk off without submitting their card at all.

Not sure what penalty is given for NR'ing one hole in a medal...

My mate did this 2 weeks ago, he was fuming but its his own stupid fault

 

[jim8flog]

Thanks, you've confirmed my understanding. We've had no messages about sanctions, consequences etc. By "returning cards" you mean "keying in" as no cards are handed in under Covid Regs.

I'll ask when I am at the club on Saturday. I suspect it is too early in the process (due to lockdowns) for the ripples to reach the edge.

We still require cards to be returned in comps but players are expected to have entered the scores via the PSI screens or App before doing so or annotate a card as 'not entered on to computer'.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

If you NR at my club you get given a score of 120 in the system which does carry through to your EG app. This is purely for those who walk off without submitting their card at all.

Not sure what penalty is given for NR'ing one hole in a medal...

My mate did this 2 weeks ago, he was fuming but its his own stupid fault

In the comp he is DQd (as normal when you NR in a medal) but on all subsequent holes he should have continued holing out and recording score for WHS HI purposes.

 

[jim8flog]

Sorry this is done elsewhere, I haven't been able to find it...

Under the old system, if you NR'd for whatever reason you got a 0.1 increase in handicap.

What happens now? Two of the guys I played with on Saturday didnt key their scores into the App. (we are not returning cards) One said he plain forgot (and I believe him as he is a bit dozy at times) the other said, it was a bad score so not going to be challenging for anything.

What happens to their playing records? Is it nothing, but they might face a sanction if they persist?

The guy who did not enter deliberately could be seen as 'handicap protecting (up or down) and should be watched for repeated for repeated actions. It was one such guy that ended up having his handicap suspended where I play. He was not returning any card that would give him a 0.1 increase and was given repeated warnings.

 

[Bdill93]

In the comp he is DQd (as normal when you NR in a medal) but on all subsequent holes he should have continued holing out and recording score for WHS HI purposes.

He walked without handing in his card... didnt want to see a 110+ on his record. Paid the price - got 120!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

He walked without handing in his card... didnt want to see a 110+ on his record. Paid the price - got 120!

Did he really appreciate that a 110+ was unlikely to ever have any impact whatsoever on his handicap...

We all have aberrations on the golf course .... and in context of the WHS such pride (and we all have some pride) is misplaced...more trouble than it’s worth as he has found out.

 

[Bdill93]

Did he really appreciate that a 110+ was unlikely to ever have any impact whatsoever on his handicap...

We all have aberrations on the golf course .... and in context of the WHS such pride (and we all have some pride) is misplaced...more trouble than it’s worth as he has found out.

Ill be honest, Im not sure? Ive made it clear to my mates the rules of WHS and how it works from threads and info on here - think he lost his head a bit and didnt consider the consequences.

I myself had a mare this weekend but still sent in the card - knowing it was less than 120 so why not!

 

[IanM]

I wonder if my club is monitoring this, or as I am behaving, I am not seeing the ramifications?

 

[Old Skier]

He walked without handing in his card... didnt want to see a 110+ on his record. Paid the price - got 120!

Why would a committee deliberately not do what they have been directed to.

 

[Bdill93]

Why would a committee deliberately not do what they have been directed to.

Im afraid I dont know what committees were told to do so cant comment.

I think its a fair punishment for someone who decides their card isnt going to be submitted at all - theyre obviously protecting their handicap and also theyre witholding the evidence of their PP's score too!

 

[jim8flog]

also they're withholding the evidence of their PP's score too!

This a big point where I play. The players score is on the markers card as verification.

 

[PJ87]

All cards must be returned, failing to do so can result in the HC committee adding scores to the worth of nett par which as apposed to going up could result in the player going down. Hopefully the NR has been noted and whatever the appropriate action decided by the HC committee will have been completed.

We have warned all our members of the possible consequences of NR’s.

In one of the threads there is a whole load of posts on the issue. Will, “try” and find it later but I have meetings most of the day.

We had 2 comps last weekend
10 cards werent returned

A email was sent out Monday saying this isn't acceptable under whs

The committee is going to look at a local rule going forward how to deal with

 

[Swango1980]

Im afraid I dont know what committees were told to do so cant comment.

I think its a fair punishment for someone who decides their card isnt going to be submitted at all - theyre obviously protecting their handicap and also theyre witholding the evidence of their PP's score too!

If a player No Returns, the Committee first need to chase the player to see if they can find any scores at all, whether than be on the markers card. And then enter those for the player (as you can appreciate, this is an inconvenience for the Committee simply because the player refused to adhere to their responsibilities under the Rules of handicapping)

If this cannot be done, the Committee need to enter a penalty score into the players record. There are a number of suggestions in the guidance, which are:

1. No Return due to invalid reason, such as memory blank: A score entered equivalent to the player playing to their current Index
2. Possible attempt to keep low handicap: A score entered equivalent to the highest score in the players last 20
3. Possible attempt to keep high handicap: A score entered equivalent to the lowest score in the players last 20

Note, these of course only go into the players handicap record, not the competition result.

The manual strongly recommends that repetitive offenders face disciplinary matters, such as suspension of handicap.

In the initial period of us getting used to WHS, I am personally messaging anyone that NRs to explain why this should not be done and ask them to continue to play the round (even if they blob a hole in medal), and hand in their score after at all times (unless there is a very good reason, such as heart attack). In a few months, we will formalise that, but the first step will likely be that gentle approach, and only introduce stronger measures after a 3rd warning.

 

[Bdill93]

If a player No Returns, the Committee first need to chase the player to see if they can find any scores at all, whether than be on the markers card. And then enter those for the player (as you can appreciate, this is an inconvenience for the Committee simply because the player refused to adhere to their responsibilities under the Rules of handicapping)

If this cannot be done, the Committee need to enter a penalty score into the players record. There are a number of suggestions in the guidance, which are:

1. No Return due to invalid reason, such as memory blank: A score entered equivalent to the player playing to their current Index
2. Possible attempt to keep low handicap: A score entered equivalent to the highest score in the players last 20
3. Possible attempt to keep high handicap: A score entered equivalent to the lowest score in the players last 20

Note, these of course only go into the players handicap record, not the competition result.

The manual strongly recommends that repetitive offenders face disciplinary matters, such as suspension of handicap.

In the initial period of us getting used to WHS, I am personally messaging anyone that NRs to explain why this should not be done and ask them to continue to play the round (even if they blob a hole in medal), and hand in their score after at all times (unless there is a very good reason, such as heart attack). In a few months, we will formalise that, but the first step will likely be that gentle approach, and only introduce stronger measures after a 3rd warning.

I cant answer for why they reached the decision of 120 then.

His next worst score is 114 - so its not far off "equivalent to the highest score in the players last 20" - but we're new to golf on the whole and have less than 12 scores on our records in total at the moment.
His lowest score is 78

Its not his first NR. But it is his first post-lockdown 3 and the first time they have issued him a 120. I dont know if he ever got a warning, hes the type that would keep that secret.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Im afraid I dont know what committees were told to do so cant comment.

I think its a fair punishment for someone who decides their card isnt going to be submitted at all - theyre obviously protecting their handicap and also theyre witholding the evidence of their PP's score too!

Those so ill-informed to think this clearly do not understand that one unusually rubbish round is very, very unlikely to ever impact their handicap.

 

[Swango1980]

Those so ill-informed to think this clearly do not understand that one unusually rubbish round is very, very unlikely to ever impact their handicap.

I will have to disagree.

There is a 40% chance it WILL impact their handicap, which is a lot higher than never impacting their handicap. Because, by not submitting that score, their 20th oldest round remains their 20th oldest round. There is a 40% chance that round made up part of their best 8. So, had they submitted a bad score, there is a 40% chance their handicap would have increased.