new rule for handicap amendments???

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Charlie_B1981

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hi all,

after advice for my father, he's 67 and been playing about 30 years and until last month had been playing of 10 for about 5 years. he had a good round and shot gross 7 over, was dropped to 9, then had another similar and was dropped .5ish to take him to 8 handicap, exact was about 8.2

last weekend he played to gross 6 over, and the committe has dropped him by 2 shots to 6 exact. stating there is new national rule in place this year stating that if you put together several consecutive rounds under handicap they can drop you by up to 2 shots rather than the usual .5/.6 etc

we've never heard of this and considering the old man's only shot to 6 once in his life and below 9 twice this seems very harsh, the local pro hasnt heard this only that it sounds like an old 'general play' rule he called it. and as yet the committe have not been able to provide the exact rule info.

anyone else heard of this and is this right?

ta muchly
 

DCB

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Sounds like the committee haven't understood the requirements of ESR. From the figures given by the OP ESR shouldn't even have been triggered.

Get a copy of his playing record and it should identify what the cuts have been applied for.
 

chrisd

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rosecott

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I suspect that the OP's quoted figures are in relation to par. When SSS/CSS are, as the should be, brought onto the equation, the picture might change. The important fact is that ESR is based on 2 or more scores of -4 Nett Differential or better and how close together they are in a sequence of scores. I assume that the club runs handicapping software and this will automatically flag up when ESR reduction is recommended. If the club is doing some sort of calculation using a formula of their own then that is not allowed under CONGU rules.
 
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Charlie_B1981

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cheers Gents, just what i needed, agree with DCB it sounds like the committe havent quite understood the rule as he's not put any round together with a net of -4, and the info specifically states it doesnt apply to category 1.

unfrtunately it wont be corrected in time for todays invitation day, but can hopefully sort it for next weeks stableford and captains away day.
 

rosecott

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cheers Gents, just what i needed, agree with DCB it sounds like the committe havent quite understood the rule as he's not put any round together with a net of -4, and the info specifically states it doesnt apply to category 1.

unfrtunately it wont be corrected in time for todays invitation day, but can hopefully sort it for next weeks stableford and captains away day.
If you can find out the exact figures - exact handicap, scores, par CSS etc. - I will do the calculations for you, but they need to be exact. Assuming we are talking England here, if you PM me his name and club, I can find the figures if your club uses HowdidIdo or Handicapmaster.
By the way, Cat 1 is 5 and lower.
 

G1BB0

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just had similar myself although I have played well in non qulaifying comps and 4bbb I have only done one round -4 which was the recent stableford I won. When I was informed I may be getting a cut on annual review I said give me what you like... so they cut me 5 shots lol
 

chrisd

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The trouble with this new system is that it only takes in qualifying competitions. I have a qualifying 64 nett (76 - 12, css 69) but 2 months of winning other non qualifying competitions and several mid 70 rounds.

When the committee did the special cuts, I would have got the computer cut of 1.2 and a rule 19 as well. They would have done a rule 19 because I shot a nett score lower than the course record, making it virtually impossible for a low single figure player to have won the comp without shooting a course record. They would have also backed the cut with the anecdotal eveidence of other non qualifying wins that netted me £200 in prize vouchers.

So if I dont put another low card in for a while and continue to win non qualifying comps I can look forward to a lot more abuse from the members!
 

duncan mackie

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as already mentioned, it would be really helpful all round to know the course played and relationship between par and CSS please.

on the basis of what's been presented there is nothing that definitively illustrates any error or misunderstanding - It's not difficult to put theoretical figures into the series of playing handicaps that would produce this sequence of playing handicaps.
 

rosecott

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You certainly make it sound like your committee should be considering a Clause 23 general play reduction even if the ESR element of Clause 23 has not been activated.The question that should be asked of your club is "why are there so many non-qualifiers?". From the CONGU handbook:Every golf club will, whenever possible, run strokeplay competitions as qualifying competitions.
 

bobmac

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So if I dont put another low card in for a while and continue to win non qualifying comps I can look forward to a lot more abuse from the members!


It looks to me as if you want to get cut but the rules say you cant? Surely that can't be true :mad:;)
You'll be telling me you'll be wanting full handicap in this years knock-outs too ;)

The important fact is that ESR is based on 2 or more scores of -4 Nett Differential or better
So what would happen if someone puts in 6 scores of -3 ?

Dont tell me Congu will let the h/cap sec use his discretion ?
 

duncan mackie

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So what would happen if someone puts in 6 scores of -3 ?

Dont tell me Congu will let the h/cap sec use his discretion ?
this thread is all getting rather confused but in respect of the above -

1. nothing has changed in respect of such scoring as you indicate here - if it was 6 competitions in a row it would cause you to to be looking at any other indications etc and would almost certainly get an additional reduction.
2. if it was 6 from 30 then it remains a system driven handicap and unless any other factors suggested otherwise you wouldn't 'interfere'.

It's worth noting that the SGU declined to get involved with the ESR trial; it's probably also worth noting that evidence I have seen of committees not implementing the ESR recomendations suggests that the trial is going to be (a) flawed (b) creating friction between clubs beyond that associated with differential general play approaches etc in the past. (my example here was a club that decided to do nothing when a player (senior) returned -6 and -6 in subsequent Q events!!!

The ESR shouldn't be optional, and the annual review should be used if committees have evidence that the reduction was beyond what the player can truly deserved - not the other way round!
 

rosecott

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just had similar myself although I have played well in non qulaifying comps and 4bbb I have only done one round -4 which was the recent stableford I won. When I was informed I may be getting a cut on annual review I said give me what you like... so they cut me 5 shots lol
I know how pleased you are with the cut and you feel you deserve to be off a lower handicap but, while not wanting to rain on your parade, my breath was taken away - a general play cut of 5.4 in the middle of the year! Your handicap record is available for all to see on Masterscoreboard and, even if you won every matchplay and 4BBB going, there is no way any handicap committee could justify a 5.4 chop. Somebody up there is out to get you and rules won't stand in his way.
 

rosecott

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just had similar myself although I have played well in non qulaifying comps and 4bbb I have only done one round -4 which was the recent stableford I won. When I was informed I may be getting a cut on annual review I said give me what you like... so they cut me 5 shots lol
Oh, and P.S. since I wasn't quick enough to edit my last post, there is no Annual Review in June/July, it is done prior to 1st March.
 

chrisd

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You certainly make it sound like your committee should be considering a Clause 23 general play reduction even if the ESR element of Clause 23 has not been activated.The question that should be asked of your club is "why are there so many non-qualifiers?". From the CONGU handbook:Every golf club will, whenever possible, run strokeplay competitions as qualifying competitions.
Simple answer Rose and I should have been clearer.

The things that I won were

The Winter league (league games then knockout phase)

A monthly Medal, which was qualifying.

A betterball pair (I advised them that I shot a gross 75)

A Texas scramble (I advised them of my general play)

Another Texas scramble (ditto)

A gross 76 at another club as a green fee but holed out and recorded a score.

A game with Scott and Bratty at their place which was sub 80 if I remember

A couple of rounds at my place of between 76 and 78 no cards.

All this within a period of about 8 weeks so I expected them to look at the qualifying nett 64 and take general play into account as I had made them aware that I was playing far below my handicap.
 

bobmac

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The question that should be asked of your club is "why are there so many non-qualifiers?".
No
The question should be why is this golfer getting abuse from other golfers for having a h/cap that is too high.
He has provided evidence that he is playing well below his official handicap and still he has not been cut.
I would like to see h/cap secs given back the ability to cut people who want and can prove they can play to a lower handicap.
Of course I know the answer is "if it's too high, just play in comps and it will soon come down". Forget the 150 other members who are in the comp who won't have a cat in hells chance of winning while he does though.

And lastly...

my breath was taken away - a general play cut of 5.4 in the middle of the year!
I just don't understand why h/cap people seem to be so reluctant to cut golfers. If the golfer want to be cut and can prove why, CUT HIM
If he get's too low, it's his own fault.
Who's going to suffer if he's off 15 and should be off 20 ?
I can tell you who is going to suffer if he's off 20 and should be off 15
 
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