New Competition "rule" to reduce the impact of "new handicaps"

Swango1980

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Personally, I can see exactly why the club has done this. The initial handicap given to players is ridiculously generous, and can potentially be smashed by that player when they play their next few rounds. Especially when that starting handicap is high. I also appreciate it can take some time for players to submit 20 cards, even when the measured course is in play.

Yes, this is a pain for those golfers new to the game. However, when new golfers to the game win competitions with 45+ points, it can be quite the turn off for regular players. My new club has a 24 handicap limit in most competitions, so that at least protects against the higher end of handicaps given to new players. Although it isn't very useful to those longer term players who are genuinely worse than a 24 handicap.
 
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IanM

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Welcome AJ. Not sure there is any way of knowing if clubs will adopt this widely. If I see a committee member over the weekend, I will ask what the catalyst for this was.

In your case, if you were +1 and you show up at an Open, playing off 15 and wind by 20 shots, yep, you might be drinking on your own after! :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: Esp if someone knows your old handicap! (n):censored:

I think in most clubs, most days, folk just get on with it. so dont worry!
 

chrisd

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Just signed up to the forum after being a long time lurker. Feel like this topic could apply to me at some point so wanted to get involved.

Brief outline of my circumstances. I am a returning player after about 20 years away from the game (was +1 h'cap when membership lapsed), and have not had a h'cap since. I intend to join my local course in the new year and eventually play open events if I find I can still play to a reasonable standard (mainly mid-ams).

Obviously I will need to gain a fresh h'cap when I join as my previous play will be too far back to take info from.

So I guess my question is, do you think this could become the norm, and am I likely to be treated suspiciously if I enter open events with only a handful of rounds in my history? Or if I'll even be allowed to enter?

Many thanks.
I dont think you'd be treated suspiciously but it's only fair that you regain a current and accurate handicap before winning a "gold letter" comp. I reckon 3 cards to arrive at a playing handicap and another 2 or 3 playing in comps before being awarded a prize is quite reasonable. I'm sure that you will be a reasonable player straight from the off given your history and doubt that you'd be a (say) 40 handicapper but then, if your club is not giving prizes in the various categories you will probably have to play off 18 max in the big comps.
 

2blue

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Just signed up to the forum after being a long time lurker. Feel like this topic could apply to me at some point so wanted to get involved.

Brief outline of my circumstances. I am a returning player after about 20 years away from the game (was +1 h'cap when membership lapsed), and have not had a h'cap since. I intend to join my local course in the new year and eventually play open events if I find I can still play to a reasonable standard (mainly mid-ams).

Obviously I will need to gain a fresh h'cap when I join as my previous play will be too far back to take info from.

So I guess my question is, do you think this could become the norm, and am I likely to be treated suspiciously if I enter open events with only a handful of rounds in my history? Or if I'll even be allowed to enter?

Many thanks.
Welcome to the Forum AJ &.. hahaha ...... presenting one of the most difficult problems H/cap committees have to deal with..... the returning golfer.
I'd say your previous play is a massive consideration..... yeah, put your 3 cards in then be content with the, say 5 H/cap it would be reasonable to be given..... then play lots of casual rounds & practice plenty, to which I'm sure you would have previously been accustomed. If I hadn't swum or riden a bike for 20 years I'm sure I wouldn't have forgotten & would quickly regain quality. A H/cap off 3 cards is unlikely to provide a fair starting H/cap even with the -2 from the best card. However... all the best on a successful return.
 

wjemather

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Personally, I can see exactly why the club has done this. The initial handicap given to players is ridiculously generous, and can potentially be smashed by that player when they play their next few rounds. Especially when that starting handicap is high. I also appreciate it can take some time for players to submit 20 cards, even when the measured course is in play.

Yes, this is a pain for those golfers new to the game. However, when new golfers to the game win competitions with 45+ points, it can be quite the turn off for regular players. My new club has a 24 handicap limit in most competitions, so that at least protects against the higher end of handicaps given to new players. Although it isn't very useful to those longer term players who are genuinely worse than a 24 handicap.
Not true. It's actually quite the opposite with the -2 premium, especially if they have a really good score early on.

Your club should probably look at divisions rather than handicap limits and allow everyone to compete fairly - it is unreasonable and exclusionary to expect a 30+ handicapper to compete off 24. Penalising improving golfers in order to benefit established golfers who don't work on their game and expect to win comps by barely playing to their handicap is not a good thing.
 

Swango1980

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Not true. It's actually quite the opposite with the -2 premium, especially if they have a really good score early on.

Your club should probably look at divisions rather than handicap limits and allow everyone to compete fairly - it is unreasonable and exclusionary to expect a 30+ handicapper to compete off 24. Penalising improving golfers in order to benefit established golfers who don't work on their game and expect to win comps by barely playing to their handicap is not a good thing.
Honestly, no one can tell me that, when a player hands in 3 cards with the best an Index of 40, that the Index of 38 they get is fair. That the -2 really protecting the rest of the field. We saw is countless times last year, where new members who had just got a new handicap (in high 20's / 30's) went out and scores 45, 46, 47, 48 points.

Not one regular player though Bravo to WHS
 
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IanM

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I think both examples above have merit - "the -2 premium, especially if they have a really good score early on" can be very tough initially, but these pages this year have countless examples of high 40s points being down the field, when , pre WHS, it was virtually unheard of!

Our club has all comps in divisions. It has lots of activities to support new golfers. ...I guess this initiative is a recognition of the potential anomaly of the 3 card HI.
 

wjemather

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Honestly, no one can tell me that, when a player hands in 3 cards with the best an Index of 40, that the Index of 38 they get is fair. That the -2 really protecting the rest of the field. We saw is countless times last year, where new members who had just got a new handicap (in high 20's / 30's) went out and scores 45, 46, 47, 48 points.

Not one regular player though Bravo to WHS
It is absolutely no different to someone getting an initial index of 22 or 10 or +1. Higher handicappers should not be arbitrarily penalised because of their greater potential for improvement.
 

wjemather

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I think both examples above have merit - "the -2 premium, especially if they have a really good score early on" can be very tough initially, but these pages this year have countless examples of high 40s points being down the field, when , pre WHS, it was virtually unheard of!

Our club has all comps in divisions. It has lots of activities to support new golfers. ...I guess this initiative is a recognition of the potential anomaly of the 3 card HI.
There is also a lot of selective recollection of the scores that got posted under UHS; or people have just been looking for exceptional scores so have noticed them more. I analysed our comp scores this year, and exceptional scores (7 under handicap) have actually been posted less frequently since the introduction of WHS.
 

Swango1980

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Not true. It's actually quite the opposite with the -2 premium, especially if they have a really good score early on.

Your club should probably look at divisions rather than handicap limits and allow everyone to compete fairly - it is unreasonable and exclusionary to expect a 30+ handicapper to compete off 24. Penalising improving golfers in order to benefit established golfers who don't work on their game and expect to win comps by barely playing to their handicap is not a good thing.
I should also point out, the -2.0 only applies after the first 3 scores (and as I said above, offers little protection to the rest of the field if a high handicapper submits a really good score on their 4th round in a comp).

However, if they do not immediately hit the ground running, then the -2.0 becomes -1.0 after 4 rounds, and 0 after 5 rounds. So, it is wiped out very quickly. Take an example:

Rounds 1-3, Score Diff = 35.0, 30.0, 38.0 INDEX = 28.0
Round 4, Score Diff = 37.0, INDEX = 29.0
Round 5, Score Diff = 42.0, INDEX = 30.0
Round 6, Score Diff = 35.0, INDEX = 31.5
Round 7, Score Diff = 39.0, INDEX = 32.5
etc

Now, at any point after Score 3, the player could see a reasonable improvement in their game. Whether it be simply getting used to playing, having lessons, being less nervous, getting used to the course, etc. It is not inconceivable they could post a Score Diff in the low 20's. After 3-10ish rounds, can we really gauge the ability of a player? Take many of my consecutive rounds of this length, and rather than being a 7 index, my scores would suggest I am a 12+ index, and that is before considering the fact a new golfer has all sorts of early challenges when starting the game.

At start of year, we had a new senior who got his handicap. Since then, and on his way to posting 20 scores, he won 3 or 4 Seniors comps, with scores in excess of 45 points. His initial handicap was 39, it is low 20's now. It has caused a lot of resentment within the Seniors section, which has also upset him to be fair.
 

DeanoMK

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Have to say, I totally back that move. Some friends of mine played in a club comp this weekend, one of the biggest at their club and this guy came in with 48 points!

Not sure I've seen a more brutal, and thoroughly deserved cut

 

A.J.

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Thanks for the welcome and advice in the replies. Very helpful.

Although my handicap lapsed many moons ago when my old course closed and didn't rejoin another club, I've been practicing and playing socially more often recently so I have a rough idea what my initial handicap would be. I'm now in a position to commit to a membership and the ultimate goal is to take the game more seriously again and get back into competitive golf.
 
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IanM

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There is also a lot of selective recollection of the scores that got posted under UHS; or people have just been looking for exceptional scores so have noticed them more. I analysed our comp scores this year, and exceptional scores (7 under handicap) have actually been posted less frequently since the introduction of WHS.
That is a really interesting (and surprising?) stat.. I wonder how typical that is of other clubs and what a similar analysis of Open Comps would look like? Out club is pretty stable, full membership so our scores have not been nutty...

93, 90, 76?? :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: Don't tell me, first two rounds with an upturned umbrella, then his clubs arrived mail order?
 

Swango1980

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It is absolutely no different to someone getting an initial index of 22 or 10 or +1. Higher handicappers should not be arbitrarily penalised because of their greater potential for improvement.
I guess we need to know what the point is in handicaps then? I always felt it was to try and create as fair a way as possible for players of different abilities to compete against each other. However, if you are of the opinion that higher handicappers, with a limited playing record, can post mega scores in comps simply because they have more room for improvement, then I personally consider that unfair. You can have a chap play 3 rounds in rubbish weather over a week or 2, be in bad form and get a high handicap. Then, a few rounds later after some practice and a nice bit of weather, post a crazy score (I'd also be annoyed if I was a new golfer who actually had an initial low index, say 2.0, as the -2.0 for their 1st round has a much bigger impact on them than the 38.0 golfer).

Clubs are setting handicap limits, putting more comps in divisions, etc, to protect against this inequality. No idea what the stats are, but from posts on this forum, it seems more and more clubs are setting these conditions due to their early experiences of WHS.
 

Swango1980

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There is also a lot of selective recollection of the scores that got posted under UHS; or people have just been looking for exceptional scores so have noticed them more. I analysed our comp scores this year, and exceptional scores (7 under handicap) have actually been posted less frequently since the introduction of WHS.
Having a look at my old club (medal scores converted to stableford, but most comps were stableford), these are the winning score stats

30 scores since WHS
Average Score = 42.5 points. Winning Scores 45+ points = 9 (which were 47, 47, 49, 46, 45, 45, 47, 48, 48)

30 scores before WHS
Average Score = 40.3 points. Winning Scores 45+ points = 2 (which were 46, 45)

I'd also add, there has been a big exodus from the club throughout this year, with competition numbers seriously reducing during WHS. So, the WHS scores could have been higher if the fields were as large as those pre WHS
 

pauldj42

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Just had a letter from the Club's Competition Committee to say that from 1st March, to be eligible to win any silverware event or claim any winnings in any club competition you must have 20 cards registered in your playing record.

Our formal comps stop at the end of September, we then move to informal "Pro Shop Swindles"... these never used to be qualifying, I suspect with the Winter Course measured, they now could be. The opportunity and practice to lodge "Gen play scores" was re-iterated in the email.

I wonder if this has come from County or Wales Golf, as we haven't had too many nutty scores from new improving players. In general,

Anyone else seem similar??
We brought in Max Handicap 18 for Silverware/Board Comps, then run an Ind Stab alongside for all those above 18 who don’t want to play in main comp.

All non silverware/board comps are done in divisions.

All open to any member once 3 Cards submitted.
 
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pauljames87

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We brought in Max Handicap 18 for Silverware/Board Comps, then run an Ind Stab alongside for all those above 18 who don’t want to play in main comp.

All non silverware/board comps are done in divisions.
Ours is all divisions except majors which are max 28 handicap for men

If you want to enter you can but you will play off 28

Doesn't seem unreasonable
 

harpo_72

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Ah the 20 card rule, we have that and a guy I met playing the match play competition fell foul of it. They said no win because of the low number of cards , enough to have kept his handicap under the congu system but not enough under whs. He had been a member for 5+ years with a track record this score wasn’t hugely better .. it was good but wasn’t a massive step.
Club was quite brutal, took his money, just told him he should have read the conditions.
However the whs system has protected and been manipulated by other players.. with its 20 rounds and 8 best average.

No system is perfect and the cheats will find a way, and there will be collateral damage along the way ..

I am not sure I can be bothered with all of this in the future and I may just do social golf when I get a chance or do what I normally do and play by myself and just enjoy the game .
 

3offTheTee

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Going back to the original post this is what we have for the majority of Competitions, the fact that this is a 4 man team is because it is towards the end of the season.

Cumbria Crystal 4 Man Team Format: Texas Scramble Handicap Allowance: 25%/20%/15%/10% from lowest to highest handicap Handicap Index Limit: 36.0 Entry £12 per team To qualify for 1st prize and the trophy all 4 players must have registered at least 12 qualifying competitive or casual round scores in their WHS record in the rolling 2 year period prior to the date of the competition.


This caused a major problem in our team as 2 of the players with around 80 years’ of membership did not qualify. One has a HI of 3.3 and the other has not the required number mainly on health ground. The Committee allowed the exemption for the health ground person but not the 3.3 player
 

saving_par

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Going back to the original post this is what we have for the majority of Competitions, the fact that this is a 4 man team is because it is towards the end of the season.

Cumbria Crystal 4 Man Team Format: Texas Scramble Handicap Allowance: 25%/20%/15%/10% from lowest to highest handicap Handicap Index Limit: 36.0 Entry £12 per team To qualify for 1st prize and the trophy all 4 players must have registered at least 12 qualifying competitive or casual round scores in their WHS record in the rolling 2 year period prior to the date of the competition.

This caused a major problem in our team as 2 of the players with around 80 years’ of membership did not qualify. One has a HI of 3.3 and the other has not the required number mainly on health ground. The Committee allowed the exemption for the health ground person but not the 3.3 player
I am not a fan of WHS but totally disagree with clubs putting a stipulation of number of scores in a time frame.

If you have a handicap it's active and relevant, putting a number of scores as a requirement for entry is the clubs attempt to exclude certain members who they believe have a better chance of winning.
 
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