New Bill Elliott column for the website

[MikeH]

Hi all
Those of you who enjoy the musings of our editor-at-large in the magazine can look forward to a new regular website column
Here's the first instalment...
http://www.golf-monthly.co.uk/tours-and-...-s-winners.html

 

[Ethan]

Bill does talk some crap from time to time, though. He may like the new 18th, but to have a go at those who don't as being unintelligent is unfair and wrong.

In fact, his logic is flawed. It may be a long time since Harry Colt designed Wentworth. It is also a long time since he designed Royal Portrush, but nobody has dug an artificial ditch in front of the 18th there to make it a better test. Can Bill cite some other great courses where such remedial action has been needed?

The 18th at Wentworth was a good hole that players reached in 2 or 3 shots. Who cares if it was a par 5 or not? Now it has been reduced to a hole which the majority lay up, and much of the excitement of the hole has gone, replaced by some disproportionate punishment for a little extra backspin.

Bill's last sentence is "Is it me?". Yes, it is.

 

[EZprophet]

Bill does talk some crap from time to time

From time to time?

He seems completely out of touch to me and I very rarely agree with any of his views.

Maybe that is just me?

 

[chrisd]

The 18th at Wentworth was a good hole that players reached in 2 or 3 shots. Who cares if it was a par 5 or not? Now it has been reduced to a hole which the majority lay up, and much of the excitement of the hole has gone, replaced by some disproportionate punishment for a little extra backspin.

I played the 18th just before the changes and, for me, it was a 3 wood, rescue club, easy wedge and lipped for a par playing off 16 at the time, but, the powers that be have ensured that your top pro's can only really play it like I could!

Having said that, it is a glorious looking hole when seen in the flesh!


Chris

 

[0]

The 18th at Wentworth was a good hole that players reached in 2 or 3 shots. Who cares if it was a par 5 or not? Now it has been reduced to a hole which the majority lay up, and much of the excitement of the hole has gone, replaced by some disproportionate punishment for a little extra backspin.

I played the 18th just before the changes

so did I and was underwhelmed at how short it played from the mens tees, obviously the medal/championship tees must be much longer, without the stand etc the old 18th was quite boring so its better now but I agree with the above saying the pros are foced to play it as a straightforward par 5 now

 

[chrisd]

I played the 18th just before the changes

so did I and was underwhelmed at how short it played from the mens tees, obviously the medal/championship tees must be much longer, without the stand etc the old 18th was quite boring so its better now but I agree with the above saying the pros are foced to play it as a straightforward par 5 now

I think we were only 15 - 20 yards forward on the day



Chris

 

[thecraw]

"Can Bill cite some other great courses where such remedial action has been needed?"


Augusta.

St Andrews, moving the historic and iconic 17th tee, which because of the aura and history is potentially a bigger issue that the 18th at Wentworth.

Turnberry. New tees installed for the Open at 10, re-routed the 10th fairway onto the coastline, added three new fairway bunkers. 16th fairway and hole in general had to be radically redesigned. Its now a dog leg and 45 yards longer, new bunkering put in. 17th had 61 yards added to it and the line altered.

Turnberry also built new tees at 3,5,7,8,14 and 18 plus the holes I've already mentioned. They also added in 20 plus bunkers.

 

[Ethan]

The 18th at Wentworth was a good hole that players reached in 2 or 3 shots. Who cares if it was a par 5 or not? Now it has been reduced to a hole which the majority lay up, and much of the excitement of the hole has gone, replaced by some disproportionate punishment for a little extra backspin.

I played the 18th just before the changes and, for me, it was a 3 wood, rescue club, easy wedge and lipped for a par playing off 16 at the time, but, the powers that be have ensured that your top pro's can only really play it like I could!

Having said that, it is a glorious looking hole when seen in the flesh!


Chris

Chris

My point is that it may have been an easy par-5 before, but it still separated players, and it doesn't really matter whether they were separated by a birdie versus a par or an eagle versus a birdie. Now these changes have actually removed some of the ability of the hole to separate players by making a greater proportion lay up. I can't imagine seeing players hitting sand wedges is the sort of excitement needed.

Edit: By the way, I played the 18th in the 2009 BMW Pro-am right before the changes. I hit driver and a hybrid to about 15 yards short and chipped and 2 putted for par. I wouldn't have played it any different if it had been a par 4.

 

[Ethan]

"Can Bill cite some other great courses where such remedial action has been needed?"


Augusta.

St Andrews, moving the historic and iconic 17th tee, which because of the aura and history is potentially a bigger issue that the 18th at Wentworth.

Turnberry. New tees installed for the Open at 10, re-routed the 10th fairway onto the coastline, added three new fairway bunkers. 16th fairway and hole in general had to be radically redesigned. Its now a dog leg and 45 yards longer, new bunkering put in. 17th had 61 yards added to it and the line altered.

Turnberry also built new tees at 3,5,7,8,14 and 18 plus the holes I've already mentioned. They also added in 20 plus bunkers.

Not the same at all. Lengthening courses and adding bunkers and tees is routine for almost every major (and they are even doing the same at my club), but they generally don't change the character of the course in such a convulsive way and in particular none of those mentioned have dug a monstrosity in front of a classic design green.

If the R&A put a pond in the Valley of Sin or make the Postage Stamp an island green, I will concede the point.

Some courses are going the other way. Pinehurst has been redesigned by Crenshaw and Coore and will return to a more natural old look. Still will be a tough proposition, but Crenshaw would have killed himself before putting a fake stream in front of a green there.

 

[thecraw]

So re-routing fairways, creating dog legs is not the same?

Want another bite at the cherry to suit your arguement?

 

[Ethan]

So re-routing fairways, creating dog legs is not the same?

Want another bite at the cherry to suit your arguement?

Hardly worth it if you didn't understand it so far.

 

[thecraw]

Ah, I see.

Toodlepip.

 

[stevek1969]

To me its a Marmite hole you either like it or love it,a bit like the changes Seve made at the 17th at Valderamma.

I personally dont like it, seeing wedges spin of the green into a large ditch is not the greatest IMO.

 

[Ethan]

Ah, I see.

Toodlepip.

OK, I was rather curt.

The changes are not sympathetic to the course design, and coming at the 18th have a bigger impact than changes earlier in the round. None of the other courses you mentioned have made changes that are so out of keeping with the course.