New ball flight laws

[MadAdey]

Well after quite a bit of discussion about ball flight laws on here and reading on the Internet I now understand what this is all about. I never did understand why I set up like I do when hitting the driver. I always thought that my draw came from releasing my hands through the ball too quick closing the clubface. I now know that it coming from my swing that is very slightly in to out and it does not matter that my clubface is slightly open at address, as it is still closed to swing path.

Now for the irons, if I am understanding this correctly I am lining up with the clubface closed to the swing path. But because the angle of the closed clubface at address is proportional to the in to out angle of the swingpath, then that will explain why my irons go straight?

Have I got this correct? I know I swing slightly in to out and have a nice controlled draw with a driver but hit my irons dead straight.

I thought all this new ball flight laws was a load of old rubbish until I looked into it more. Every few years someone comes up with a crack-pot theory to try and make a name for himself in the golfing world. This is nothing like that, this is spot on and explains so much.

Well I can't wait for the shoulder to fix itself and go out and video my swing so I can look into my swing more.

Big thanks to Justone and Bobmac ​for helping me to understand this.

 

[USER1999]

Yes, you have it correct.

There are three ways to hit the ball straight, and that is one of them.

 

[MadAdey]

Yes, you have it correct.

There are three ways to hit the ball straight, and that is one of them.

Cheers Murph I know understand this then.
I do apologise Murph. I did not put your name in the thanks for getting me into this.....:cheers:

 

[SGC001]

Well after quite a bit of discussion about ball flight laws on here and reading on the Internet I now understand what this is all about. I never did understand why I set up like I do when hitting the driver. I always thought that my draw came from releasing my hands through the ball too quick closing the clubface. I now know that it coming from my swing that is very slightly in to out and it does not matter that my clubface is slightly open at address, as it is still closed to swing path.

Now for the irons, if I am understanding this correctly I am lining up with the clubface closed to the swing path. But because the angle of the closed clubface at address is proportional to the in to out angle of the swingpath, then that will explain why my irons go straight?

Have I got this correct? I know I swing slightly in to out and have a nice controlled draw with a driver but hit my irons dead straight.

I thought all this new ball flight laws was a load of old rubbish until I looked into it more. Every few years someone comes up with a crack-pot theory to try and make a name for himself in the golfing world. This is nothing like that, this is spot on and explains so much.

Well I can't wait for the shoulder to fix itself and go out and video my swing so I can look into my swing more.

Big thanks to Justone and Bobmac ​for helping me to understand this.

Can you explain what you mean in paragraph 2, please? I'm reading it as a closed clubface to path and an in to out path. For straight shots the path and face are square to each other, making certain assumptions on centredness, angle of attack... It's any difference between path and face that gives you curve in these circumstances.

 

[USER1999]

Because the ratio of direction being controlled by face angle, or path is about 85% face angle, 15% path, you can hit a straight shot by having path and face aligned to direction. Or, you can have the path and face compensate for each other, and hit a straight shot with a wonky path, which is corrected by a correspondingly wonky face angle. This is what the op is doing.

 

[MadAdey]

Can you explain what you mean in paragraph 2, please? I'm reading it as a closed clubface to path and an in to out path. For straight shots the path and face are square to each other, making certain assumptions on centredness, angle of attack... It's any difference between path and face that gives you curve in these circumstances.

This is still new to me as I am just learning it, so maybe one of the others can answer this better, but I will try. Look at his diagram:


The club is moving in one direction but the clubface is open to that swing path. Under the old laws they said the ball would have started off on a path relevant to the swing path, then curved back. But as you can see from that diagram the ball actually starts off on a path that is in direct relation to how much the clubface is open to the swing path. Resulting in the ball going in a direction different to what we would expect using the old ways. It is all to do with vectors. If you swing the club 2 degree out to in with a clubface 2 degree open, the initial flight of the ball will be different to having the clubface 4 degree open. The ball would start on a path more to the right having the face more open. Or if you had the clubface square to the direction of swing then you would pull it left.

In my case what I was saying about was the opposite to the diagram as I swing in to out with a face closed to the swingpath, resulting in the ball going where I am aiming. I think I have got this correct and please someone tell me if I am wrong and explain why, do not shoot me down..........:thup:

 

[Piece]

Big thanks to Justone and Bobmac ​for helping me to understand this.

Not forgetting SocketRocket!

 

[MadAdey]

Because the ratio of direction being controlled by face angle, or path is about 85% face angle, 15% path, you can hit a straight shot by having path and face aligned to direction. Or, you can have the path and face compensate for each other, and hit a straight shot with a wonky path, which is corrected by a correspondingly wonky face angle. This is what the op is doing.

I have been described as many things on the course....but wonky is a bit harsh isn't it?

Or maybe not..........

 

[SGC001]

Because the ratio of direction being controlled by face angle, or path is about 85% face angle, 15% path, you can hit a straight shot by having path and face aligned to direction. Or, you can have the path and face compensate for each other, and hit a straight shot with a wonky path, which is corrected by a correspondingly wonky face angle. This is what the op is doing.

I can see it possible to start on line, but I see it curving with a centred hit?

 

[USER1999]

We are only talking small amounts of face angle and path here, not extremes, and due to the 85/15 ratio, some of the direction is due to path, but not as much as people previously thought. It is not easy to hit it straight this way, but some can naturally do it. I used to. Effectively there is only one path / face angle which will work, for in to out, or out to in.

It is very hard to hit a dead straight shot deliberately.

 

[SGC001]

This is still new to me as I am just learning it, so maybe one of the others can answer this better, but I will try. Look at his diagram:
View attachment 387

The club is moving in one direction but the clubface is open to that swing path. Under the old laws they said the ball would have started off on a path relevant to the swing path, then curved back. But as you can see from that diagram the ball actually starts off on a path that is in direct relation to how much the clubface is open to the swing path. Resulting in the ball going in a direction different to what we would expect using the old ways. It is all to do with vectors. If you swing the club 2 degree out to in with a clubface 2 degree open, the initial flight of the ball will be different to having the clubface 4 degree open. The ball would start on a path more to the right having the face more open. Or if you had the clubface square to the direction of swing then you would pull it left.

In my case what I was saying about was the opposite to the diagram as I swing in to out with a face closed to the swingpath, resulting in the ball going where I am aiming. I think I have got this correct and please someone tell me if I am wrong and explain why, do not shoot me down..........:thup:

For me it starts off between the face and path, but closer to the face (approx 80%) and then curves relative to any difference between path and face. Here we are assuming no crosswind and centred hits (path is 'true' path). Add in an off centre hit and I could see how you could cancel out a diffence in the spin caused by the face and path not been together, but that is with an off centre hit.

 

[JustOne]

Firstly MadAdey, thanks for some plaudits... gratefully received.

I can see it possible to start on line, but I see it curving with a centred hit?

Me too. That said it could be the smallest of straight pushes with a nearly 0° attack angle, or indeed the smallest of draws. The only true way of hitting an iron straight with a big angle of attack (eg -7°) is to stand open to the target line, of course it's feasible that his shoulders are open yada yada.... but we are splitting hairs especially seeing as we don't know the angle of attack.

 

[JustOne]

@MadAdey

Really pleased you've come as far as you have, so now what to do with that knowledge?



You're standing in the fairway, an 8-iron to the middle of the green.....

How do you hit a push-draw to that pin?

... push-fade?

... push-hook?

... straight shot?

or (it pains me to say but will test your understanding).... a pull-fade?

 

[Monty_Brown]

I have a query about how the flight laws relate to bunker shots.

The old school of thought said open the stance to the target, and open the face wide open to elevate the ball. Weirdly, that seems more in tune with modern flight laws, ie, the ball will follow the direction of the clubface, not the swing path which chops across the target line.

Knowing what we know now, where should alignment, swingpath and clubface be at set-up and impact to get the bunker shot going stright at the flag? I'm curious whether the sand between ball and clubface affects spin and therefore "the rules" of flight?

 

[SGC001]

Here is a kink to the Trackman newsletter 4 that deals with a straight shot

http://www.trackman.dk/download/newsletter/newsletter4.pdf

Change the number 4 to a 1 or 7 and you get other newlsetters.

 

[MadAdey]

@MadAdey

Really pleased you've come as far as you have, so now what to do with that knowledge?



You're standing in the fairway, an 8-iron to the middle of the green.....

How do you hit a push-draw? In to out, club open to target but closed to swing path?

... push-fade? In to out, club open to target and swing path?

... push-hook? In to out, club closed to target and swing path?

... straight shot? aim at the target, swing straight down the line with club square to swing path and target?

or (it pains me to say but will test your understanding).... a pull-fade?

Well here goes then, I will try my best but only just starting to understand this new law.

How do you hit a push-draw? In to out, club open to target but closed to swing path?

... push-fade? In to out, club open to target and swing path?

... push-hook? In to out, club closed to target and swing path?

... straight shot? aim at the target, swing straight down the line with club square to swing path and target?

or (it pains me to say but will test your understanding).... a pull-fade? out to in, club closed to target but open to swing path?

Tried my best mate, but like I said I am still looking into these new laws and how they say we actually hit the ball. I have probably got the straight shot wrong, but hey I think we would all love to be able to do that.:whoo:​

 

[MadAdey]

So come on then......tell me if I am correct or not

 

[JustOne]

... push-fade? In to out, club open to target and swing path?

If you line up square where is the ball going, and what would you do to solve that?

... push-hook? In to out, club closed to target and swing path?

Clubface closed to target? Where's the ball going to start?

... straight shot? aim at the target, swing straight down the line with club square to swing path and target?

Straight shot is a bit ambiguous, you need to do what you said above but align the entire thing 3-5° to the left to allow for a downwards angle of attack, it's complicated and most people who hit it dead straight do so by accident (not doing what they think they are).

 

[MadAdey]

Ok then just answer me one question.... which did I get correct and which did I get wrong? I would like to know how good my understanding has become of this from knowing bugger all last week to getting this far.

 

[JustOne]

Push-draw, push-fade and pull-fade were correct for clubface/swingpath.

nb:alignment also comes into play and should have been part of your answer :ears:


Have you figured out how to hit a push-hook yet?