Mats (tees and fairway mats) for Q scores

[2blue]

EngGolf's check list for maintaining Q conditions during winter says -
"Acceptable Scores may be returned in Competitions and in General Play when
there is a Local Rule in place requiring the compulsory use of fairway mats to
protect the natural surfaces of the course, during the preferred lies period."
Sorry if this seems a daft question but does this mean that it is no longer possible to have "optional" use of fairway mats in these circumstances?

 

[jim8flog]

Sorry if this seems a daft question but does this mean that it is no longer possible to have "optional" use of fairway mats in these circumstances?[/QUOTE]



My view is that a club must have one or the other ( i.e compulsory or no mats) in force at the start of the comp and a player cannot pick and choose according to their lie.

 

[jim8flog]

We never have fairway mats.

 

[2blue]

My view is that a club must have one or the other ( i.e compulsory or no mats) in force at the start of the comp and a player cannot pick and choose according to their lie.

I've now had clarification from EG that the term 'compulsory' can be replaced with 'recommended' so that with a LR in place optional mats will be allowed for those who wish to protect their course during it's most vulnerable period. Common sense prevails..... good old EngGolf!!

 

[Colin L]

I've now had clarification from EG that the term 'compulsory' can be replaced with 'recommended' so that with a LR in place optional mats will be allowed for those who wish to protect their course during it's most vulnerable period. Common sense prevails..... good old EngGolf!!

Interesting. That's a substantive change to MLR E-12 (my emphasis).

"When a player’s ball lies in a part of the general area cut to fairway height or less and a putter is not being used for the stroke, the player must take free relief....."

I understood, however, that the LR was made available to help clubs with compliance in the use of mats and so if a club isn't bothered about ensuring everyone complies, I don't suppose changing the LR matters. It just doesn't seem right, though.

Anyway, if you want to protect a course during the winter, what's the point of making the means of protecting it optional? What protection do you get if everyone chooses to play without a mat?

 

[D-S]

When I played Burnham and Berrow last year you had use a fairway mat if you preferred your lie, if you didn’t you could play it as it lay - seemed an odd way of trying to protect the course.

 

[2blue]

Interesting. That's a substantive change to MLR E-12 (my emphasis).

"When a player’s ball lies in a part of the general area cut to fairway height or less and a putter is not being used for the stroke, the player must take free relief....."

I understood, however, that the LR was made available to help clubs with compliance in the use of mats and so if a club isn't bothered about ensuring everyone complies, I don't suppose changing the LR matters. It just doesn't seem right, though.

Anyway, if you want to protect a course during the winter, what's the point of making the means of protecting it optional? What protection do you get if everyone chooses to play without a mat?

Its really up to the individual if they wish to protect the course as our owners do not want it to be regarded as a "Mats" course. Yes, I realise that means there could still be lots playing who are digging holes & often not replacing the divots but at least I know that I care & are not having to play from a muddy goo.

 

[Jason.H]

When I played Burnham and Berrow last year you had use a fairway mat if you preferred your lie, if you didn’t you could play it as it lay - seemed an odd way of trying to protect the course.

The members at our club are told to use mats but the visitors/societies leave the fairways in a state. I mean if you take a large divot why not put it back?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

No…but from next winter we are. And, as I understand things, it’s not to do with mats or no mats, or otherwise historically protecting the course.

IMO this is right. At my place there are a few members who have been playing a lot since end October and repeatedly racking up 40-42+ s/f puts in rollups and other winter comps without their hcap being adjusted. And as the final rounds of the winter KOs play out and more importantly the first rounds of the summer KOs start up, these players are playing with hcaps higher (quite significantly in some cases) than they should be.

It’s the WHS debate. Same as it ever was - but I think WHS probably more needs qualifying scores to be recorded regularly so that a players HI reflects his current ability. In the past a rubbish qualifying round had a players handicap immediately going up to balance off his good rounds; with WHS a rubbish round simply sinks to the bottom of the players 20 round pool of scores and is lost in the weeds. Under old system as soon as a player puts in a cracking q score their hcap was immediately subjected to a significant cut, and that could be large for the higher cappers. Under WHS the immediate impact of a cracking q score is ameliorated by the WHS averaging.

 

[Swango1980]

No…but from next winter we are. And, as I understand things, it’s not to do with mats or no mats, or otherwise historically protecting the course.

IMO this is right. At my place there are a few members who have been playing a lot since end October and repeatedly racking up 40-42+ s/f puts in rollups and other winter comps without their hcap being adjusted. And as the final rounds of the winter KOs play out and more importantly the first rounds of the summer KOs start up, these players are playing with hcaps higher (quite significantly in some cases) than they should be.

It’s the WHS debate. Same as it ever was - but I think WHS probably more needs qualifying scores to be recorded regularly so that a players HI reflects his current ability. In the past a rubbish qualifying round had a players handicap immediately going up to balance off his good rounds; with WHS a rubbish round simply sinks to the bottom of the players 20 round pool of scores and is lost in the weeds. Under old system as soon as a player puts in a cracking q score their hcap was immediately subjected to a significant cut, and that could be large for the higher cappers. Under WHS the immediate impact of a cracking q score is ameliorated by the WHS averaging.

You should remember, a rubbish round under WHS isn't strictly lost in the weeds. It knocks the 21st older score into the weeds. If the 21st oldest score was a good round, then the impact of that bad round is a handicap increase. Possibly a relatively large one. If the 21st oldest score was a poor round, handicap remains the same. However, the latest bad round means that a top 8 score is closer to dropping off your last 20, as the player continues to submit scores.

So, it is obviously incorrect to assume bad scores simply disappear. They don't, and will have an impact sooner or later.

 

[2blue]

No…but from next winter we are. And, as I understand things, it’s not to do with mats or no mats, or otherwise historically protecting the course.

IMO this is right. At my place there are a few members who have been playing a lot since end October and repeatedly racking up 40-42+ s/f puts in rollups and other winter comps without their hcap being adjusted. And as the final rounds of the winter KOs play out and more importantly the first rounds of the summer KOs start up, these players are playing with hcaps higher (quite significantly in some cases) than they should be.

It’s the WHS debate. Same as it ever was - but I think WHS probably more needs qualifying scores to be recorded regularly so that a players HI reflects his current ability. In the past a rubbish qualifying round had a players handicap immediately going up to balance off his good rounds; with WHS a rubbish round simply sinks to the bottom of the players 20 round pool of scores and is lost in the weeds. Under old system as soon as a player puts in a cracking q score their hcap was immediately subjected to a significant cut, and that could be large for the higher cappers. Under WHS the immediate impact of a cracking q score is ameliorated by the WHS averaging.

Yes its driving force for our Club to do the same & go to the greatest lengths to provide the most comfortable playing conditions to enable winter Q's to go ahead. However, we are already hearing that some are less likely to engage as they don't feel that winter golf should impact their low H/Cap.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You should remember, a rubbish round under WHS isn't strictly lost in the weeds. It knocks the 21st older score into the weeds. If the 21st oldest score was a good round, then the impact of that bad round is a handicap increase. Possibly a relatively large one. If the 21st oldest score was a poor round, handicap remains the same. However, the latest bad round means that a top 8 score is closer to dropping off your last 20, as the player continues to submit scores.

So, it is obviously incorrect to assume bad scores simply disappear. They don't, and will have an impact sooner or later.

Yeh understand all that, but still mostly the case that the immediate impact on hcap of a stonking round is not going to be as much as before unless, as you say, the round knocks out of his 20 an equally good one in his 8.

And yes, a rubbish round could knock a top 8 out of his 20. But in that scenario there is likely to be another in the 20 that was nearly a top 8 counter and that now is.

I played a lad in winter ko recently. He is off 19, was off 10 not that long ago, but he has really got his act together since October and admits he should be off about 13, and he probably would have been if he’d been submitting cards. How long will it take him to get down once he starts putting cards in. It’ll not be as quick as what would have happened if he was getting cut 0.2 for every shot under his CH. He‘ been scoring 4-10 under 19 many times over last 4 months, but no adjustments. I gave him 10 shots - did my best - but lost after 15 and he’d dropped 8 (including a triple…)

 

[Swango1980]

Yeh understand all that, but still mostly the case that the immediate impact on hcap of a stonking round is not going to be as much as before unless, as you say, the round knocks out of his 20 an equally good one in his 8.

And yes, a rubbish round could knock a top 8 out of his 20. But in that scenario there is likely to be another in the 20 that was nearly a top 8 counter and that now is.

I played a lad in winter ko recently. He is off 19, was off 10 not that long ago, but he has really got his act together since October and admits he should be off about 13, and he probably would have been if he’d been submitting cards. How long will it take him to get down once he starts putting cards in. It’ll not be as quick as what would have happened if he was getting cut 0.2 for every shot under his CH. He‘ been scoring 4-10 under 19 many times over last 4 months, but no adjustments. I gave him 10 shots - did my best - but lost after 15 and he’d dropped 8 (including a triple…)

I think this is another point to raise. There may well be another round (previously 9th best) that was close to the top 8, once the oldest of that top 8 was lost. However, if it does replace this round, it would still be the worst 8th round of those 8. Therefore, the impacts of bad rounds can still jump up quite significantly, once they start pushing the top 8 outside your last 20. Even my handicap, just in single figures, can jump up more than 0.5 after one round sometimes. So, even though it might not change at all if I'm not getting rid of a top 8 score, it more than makes up for it when I start losing those rounds.

Of course, this was flagged as being a benefit of WHS, handicap will rise more quickly. That is a good thing for golfers who are genuinely declining in ability. Although, is it a good thing for golfers who submit loads and loads of scores, and just happen to be going through a temporary loss of form / playing through a spell of bad weather (well, it is probably good for them, but maybe not those they compete against)?

P.S. I suspect you are correct about cuts though. The chap you are talking about would have been in Category 3 under the old system (approximately, playing off a course handicap of 19. If his Index is 19, and course handicap over 20, could well be Cat 4). So, he'd have at least got cut 0.3 shot for every shot better than handicap, not 0.2. I just did a rough and ready calculation (just assuming Slope=113), where I chose 8 scores that would give an average of 19.0 Index, ranging from 16.5 to 22.5. If he shot a diff of 12.0, his Index would drop to 17.7 most times, except in worst case scenario where he lost his 16.5 score, which would mean his Index would only drop to 18.4 (So, it would drop somewhere to anything between 17.7 to 18.4 in this case). If he shot 7 under his handicap of 19 under the old system, his new handicap would be 16.9.

 

[DickInShorts]

A rapidly improving golfer is also likely to get hit with an ESA

 

[jim8flog]

I mean if you take a large divot why not put it back?

A sentiment I agree with but with certain types of turf/ grass it is waste of time as the divot will just die anyway. I was once told this is true of the type of grass found on many links courses.

 

[rulie]

A sentiment I agree with but with certain types of turf/ grass it is waste of time as the divot will just die anyway. I was once told this is true of the type of grass found on many links courses.

Regardless, replacing the divot does fill the hole! Many golfers seem to think that divot replacement/repair is somebody else's job? Taking care of the course is every golfer's responsibility. There is golf karma.

 

[Crazyface]

I'm an expert at repairing divots on greens. Just wish more of them were mine.

 

[rulefan]

I'm an expert at repairing divots on greens. Just wish more of them were mine.

I really hope you don't. Unless they were made by brutes I can't see many taking a divot with a putter.
Perhaps they were pitch marks pretending they were grownups.

 

[need_my_wedge]

I don’t think we have qualifying comps but we have been using fairway mats since we joined last month. It’s the done thing in the winter here.

 

[2blue]

Our Match & H/cap team has come up with a novel way of getting into Q Golf when the course is not quite there yet, as we've preferred lies as well as pick clean & replace. Many Members would be reluctant to engage in Q-Comps as they are thinking in the past & consider the course to be unready for 'proper' golf.
Comp T's & C's include..... you can sign up for a Comp which is None-Q but can also submit a General Play at the same time. Should you decide to just do the Comp so that new Members can get their 5 Comps in, in order to play in the Club KO's then if you have a Net Par round it will be added to H/cap.
A neat compromise under the current situation.