Matchplay query - need assistance

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IanMcC

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As Match & Handicap Secretary I received a phone call a few minutes ago. Whilst I seek and answer in the rule books, maybe I can get a definitive answer on here.
Seniors Pairs Match Play. All square playing 18th. Both hole out in 6, nett 5. All 4 agree that match should go to 19th. All tee off. Team B then realise that Team A did not have a shot on the 18th.
Team B then pick up their balls and claim the match.
I'm about to scour the books for an answer, but if someone can give me a swift and correct answer, I'd appreciate it.
 
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I can't quote the rule but as Team agreed it was half on the on the 18th its their mistake, so they play on, Teams can claim a match, Teams can only concede a match
 

wjemather

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Rule 3.2c - "If the players mistakenly apply handicap strokes on a hole, the agreed result of the hole stands, unless the players correct that mistake in time (see Rule 3.2d(3))".

Rule 3.3d(3) - "If the players mistakenly agree on a wrong match score: They may correct the match score before either player makes a stroke to begin another hole... If not corrected in that time, that wrong match score becomes the actual match score."
 
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IanMcC

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I have told the guy this.

Rule 3.2c If the players mistakenly apply handicap strokes on a hole, the agreed result of the hole stands, unless the players correct that mistake in time (see Rule 3.2d(3)).

Rule 9 - If a ball at rest is lifted or moved by anyone or any outside influence before the stroke is made, the ball must be replaced on its original spot.
Penalty for Playing Incorrectly Substituted Ball or Playing Ball from a Wrong Place in Breach of Rule 9.1: General Penalty under Rule- 6.3b or 14.7a.

So Team A win the match.
 

Colin L

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Ian
That's absolutely fine on the result of the 18th hole standing as a half. I don't quite get your reference to Rule 9, however. No-one appears to have played a ball from a wrong place. What Team B should have done on the 19th was to say that they were going to seek a ruling on the result of the 18th and continued on the basis of a half until there was a result. Instead, they picked up their balls. That action in itself did not lose them the match as they could have replaced them with a one stroke penalty and carried on. But what they actually did was to stop playing without the agreement of their opponents and were thus in breach of Rule 5.7a and are disqualified.

That's my take on it.
 
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IanMcC

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Thanks Colin. I have written to the chap with the rules you quoted. At least I reached the right conclusion.:)
 

Slab

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Since its been answered I wonder if I might ask a side question relating to a tied match re this portion
All square playing 18th. Both hole out in 6, nett 5. All 4 agree that match should go to 19th.

The match play comps I’ve played in stated in the conditions of competition that in the event of a tie the players must agree, prior to starting the round, how they’ll proceed i.e a replay or extend hole by hole to determine a winner (doing so before starting means there’s no possibility of waiting until after putting out on the 18th green to only then decide how to break the tie)

I assume this was a condition of competition rather than a rule of (match play) golf, can someone confirm please?
 

SammmeBee

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I think what he’s saying is none if them queried the stroke situation before they went to the 19th……

The Rules of Golf describe how a tie should be settled if required to do so so no need for any prior agreement from the players….
 

Slab

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I think what he’s saying is none if them queried the stroke situation before they went to the 19th……

The Rules of Golf describe how a tie should be settled if required to do so so no need for any prior agreement from the players….
thanks I understand the original query about strokes etc (sorry if I'm now taking it off track) but since the original query had been answered my (side) question is about how (& when) a tied match should be decided. I suppose there's three common options (leaving aside coin toss/draw etc):
  1. Ties could be a permitted result
  2. Go Hole by Hole (sudden death)
  3. Replay all 18
The conditions of comp i'm sure will advise if a tie is a recognised valid result for a match play comp (round robin tables/ryder cup etc) but in the opening post it indicates they had the option to choose how to decide the winners, I'll guess at choosing between options 2 & 3 (otherwise there's no need to say "all players agree" to play on)

That being the case my question is still, is it permissible to make that decision after 18 holes have been played, or where options exist to resolve a tie in the conditions of comp/RoG, must the method be chosen & agreed before starting the match?

If its permissible to decide after 18 holes, what then happens if the opponents cannot agree between options 2 & 3 ?
(Team A want the result decided by a replay and Team B want to continue hole by hole)
 

Slab

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I read Rule 3.2a(4) as an either/or. Either the the match is extended or the committee may determine it ends in a tie.
Ah ok, so you read it as ‘we agree it’s a tie’, rather than agreeing how to proceed in the event of a tie.

Yeah I can see how it would read that way too (the usual match play comp for me gives players the choice of sudden death or replay, so it cannot be left & done on the 18th)
 

Colin L

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Ah ok, so you read it as ‘we agree it’s a tie’, rather than agreeing how to proceed in the event of a tie.

Yeah I can see how it would read that way too (the usual match play comp for me gives players the choice of sudden death or replay, so it cannot be left & done on the 18th)
Sorry, that's not what I meant. I read the rule to say that the default situation is that a match is extended if tied after 18 but that the Committee may state in the Terms of Competition.that a match finishes after 18 as a tie. It has to be predetermined and doesn't in any way allow players a choice. If the Terms of Competition are silent on the matter, matches are extended.
 
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Slab

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Sorry, that's not what I meant. I read the rule to say that the default situation is that a match is extended if tied after 18 but that the Committee may state in the Terms of Competition.that a match finishes after 18 as a tie. It doesn't in any way allow players a choice.
thanks, I'm just reading something that isn't really there because of our own clubs tiebreaker options, thanks for clearing up (y)
 

Swinglowandslow

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I found this very interesting, and I fully understand and see how the rules mean that team A can claim the match.
But, if I was a team A member...........
Is there any way that team A could now ask that the match be awarded
to B, on the basis that in reality, they (A) lost it on the 18th, and that they feel it is the right thing to do.?
 

rulie

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I found this very interesting, and I fully understand and see how the rules mean that team A can claim the match.
But, if I was a team A member...........
Is there any way that team A could now ask that the match be awarded
to B, on the basis that in reality, they (A) lost it on the 18th, and that they feel it is the right thing to do.?
They could ask, but the Rules prohibit it being done. A match can only be conceded before it is completed - see Rule 3.2b.
 

salfordlad

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Ian
That's absolutely fine on the result of the 18th hole standing as a half. I don't quite get your reference to Rule 9, however. No-one appears to have played a ball from a wrong place. What Team B should have done on the 19th was to say that they were going to seek a ruling on the result of the 18th and continued on the basis of a half until there was a result. Instead, they picked up their balls. That action in itself did not lose them the match as they could have replaced them with a one stroke penalty and carried on. But what they actually did was to stop playing without the agreement of their opponents and were thus in breach of Rule 5.7a and are disqualified.

That's my take on it.
I think it is a genuinely intriguing scenario, lots of moving parts. The simple element is the match was certainly still live on the 19th. I fully understand the logic of Colin's view/discussion, but I think there are other angles/complexity here. In particular, we have no information about the other player's view. If, for example, the other player believed the claim to be valid and they also lifted their ball thinking the match over, then a different Committee ruling seems appropriate - claim is rejected and each player gets one stroke penalty for lifting ball in play without rules authority and they need to return and complete the match. Alternatively, if the other player was rules aware and knew the claim was invalid and wanted to proceed with the match but could not because his opponent had left the course, the Colin's ruling appears highly defensible.
Lots of rules fun here.
 

wjemather

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I think it is a genuinely intriguing scenario, lots of moving parts. The simple element is the match was certainly still live on the 19th. I fully understand the logic of Colin's view/discussion, but I think there are other angles/complexity here. In particular, we have no information about the other player's view. If, for example, the other player believed the claim to be valid and they also lifted their ball thinking the match over, then a different Committee ruling seems appropriate - claim is rejected and each player gets one stroke penalty for lifting ball in play without rules authority and they need to return and complete the match. Alternatively, if the other player was rules aware and knew the claim was invalid and wanted to proceed with the match but could not because his opponent had left the course, the Colin's ruling appears highly defensible.
Lots of rules fun here.
Also for consideration is Interpretation 23.2a/1: In Four-Ball match play, if no player completes a hole, the side whose player is last to pick up or be disqualified from the hole wins the hole.
 
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