Matchplay - incorrect information

Liverbirdie

Liverbirdie

Ryder Cup Winner
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I've looked on the R and A site, and it gives 17 different decisions with regards to incorrect information given by an opponent, but doesn't absolutely advise a situation I incurred tonight.

Generally, giving incorrect information when requested seems to incur loss of hole.

Tonight's scenario:- 2 people playing a match (a non-club related match, but in the NW OOM) and another guy who is also just playing alongside us as a host.

Par 4 Player A is giving player B a shot.

Player A is near the green in two and is next to play.

Player B and the host have hit balls into the green from a distance away but neither shots were seen by player A.

One ball is through the green, the other is approx 8 foot away.

Player A asks player B whose ball is the close one, and whose is through the green. Player B says that his is the close one (it wasn't). Player A then knowing he probably needs to play it very close to the pin tries a flop shot.............

Then Player B walks up to the ball through the green with a wedge........the result of the hole ends up as a halve, but Player A would have taken a different shot option if he would have been given the correct information.

Now the misunderstanding is that player B was "joking", player A didnt realise and picked his shot based on the information given.

Does player B lose the hole?

Obviously the rules dont say such words as sarcasm/joking etc.......it says lots about advising the wrong number of strokes, but I cant see where it says about advising info about saying your ball is one ball, when in fact it wasnt.
 
It's getting a bit tetchy this oom thing... :rofl:

i had a stone (more like a half brick) in a bunker the other night. I asked if it was ok to remove, general consensus it was.
but reading the gm mag before it says Only a local rule permits to take it out. Oops :o

as an aside, if I new the rule and I had to play it, I would of conceded the hole. The new wedge is still too new for any of that nonsense! As it was I nearly holed the thing, and had a tap in half
 
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Misleading his opponent as to which of the two balls was his is not "wrong information" in terms of Rule 9 since it is not about how many strokes B had taken. You have to look for a different Rule to apply. As far as I can see, there is no Rule or Decision that applies in particular to this situation. However, whether "joking" or not, Player B deliberately misled Player A to the extent that it made him play a riskier shot than he would have had he known B was in fact further away from the hole. Player A has,the choice of ignoring it or making a claim. In my view, the Committee would need to consider whether this was a serious enough matter for a DQ under Rule 33-7.

(Have I missed an applicable Rule, anyone?]
 
Looks like you're gonna have to report it to Birchy mate.. Bearing in mind his love of fairness, equality and tolerance, I reckon we all know what the decision will be... :whistle:
 
davemc1 said:
It's getting a bit tetchy this oom thing... :rofl:

i had a stone (more like a half brick) in a bunker the other night. I asked if it was ok to remove, general consensus it was.
but reading the gm mag before it says Only a local rule permits to take it out. Oops :o

as an aside, if I new the rule and I had to play it, I would of conceded the hole. The new wedge is still too new for any of that nonsense! As it was I nearly holed the thing, and had a tap in half
Click to expand...

Absolutely is, Dave.

Introducing Player B to the thread! Hi.

You can see the reigning champ is already clutching at straws but i'd like to add a bit of genuine context...

My darling oppo fails to point out a couple of things...asking a question to his FC (me) some 40yrds away against a 3 club wind. Both FC and PPs names were heard in the 'question' and both balls were on, or thru the green. In the conditions the question wasn't clear, yes I signalled to the middle of the green, laughing, but also to the back as well (I had to gesture because shouting wouldn't have been heard given the conditions).

The OP then replied with something, I still know not what, and I laughed (out of politeness for what presumed was a joke - I actually couldn't/didn't hear) but it was claimed it was a 'North-Western' banter...

OP was also 10yrds from green side when he asked. Myself and our PP, where 30/40yrds away walking down. OP played his shot before me or our PP had even got to our balls.

Also as context to the 'claim', in between the OP and the green, was a pot bunker. The flag some 10 yrds on. The OP had to flop it over the bunker and stop it on extremely fast greens to get close. His FC (me) was just off in two and had a shot. Quite simply, he did what everyone would do, and played a wee flop over it - it ran on well past the hole. The was no other shot or club, he could/would have taken to better the outcome, despite the OP's claims of "I wouldn't have used my shortest wedge, I would have used a GW instead(!)." This I know, does not have a bearing on any potential ruling but would just like to point out that because the flop wasn't a perfect one, an up and down wasn't made....

I'm sure our host and PP will stay well away from this (and rightly too) but as Player A was losing (I think 3dn at the time) the only comments our fantastic host could say as Player A talked about it (for every single hole after and probably the next 6 years) was "Mind games have started..."

Pete, I love you and your cheeky smile dearly and always will but one day I might post up a rule question about FC's dropping carry bags on tee shot backswings or barracking when your FCs are over a putt to win a hole, ready to go...

Yours

Always and forever

Odders xxxx
 
Odvan said:
My darling oppo fails to point out a couple of things...asking a question to his FC (me) some 40yrds away against a 3 club wind. Both FC and PPs names ....

The OP then replied with something,The OP had to flop it over the bunker and stop it on extremely fast greens to get close. His FC (me) was just off in two ....
I'm sure our host and PP will
Click to expand...

I hope someone knows who is what
 
Lets not forget the most important thing here......my 2nd into that tough hole was a belter :) :) :) Sadly, the putt wasnt as good.

Just to add.....there was certainly no deliberate deviousness or underhandedness here.....and all 3 of us knew that. It was just misunderstanding. The game was played in great spirit !!!
 
Junior said:
Lets not forget the most important thing here......my 2nd into that tough hole was a belter :) :) :) Sadly, the putt wasnt as good.

Just to add.....there was certainly no deliberate deviousness or underhandedness here.....and all 3 of us knew that. It was just misunderstanding. The game was played in great spirit !!!
Click to expand...

I saw it and it was , but Pete didn't :D.
 
Odvan said:
Absolutely is, Dave.

Introducing Player B to the thread! Hi.

You can see the reigning champ is already clutching at straws but i'd like to add a bit of genuine context...

My darling oppo fails to point out a couple of things...asking a question to his FC (me) some 40yrds away against a 3 club wind. Both FC and PPs names were heard in the 'question' and both balls were on, or thru the green. In the conditions the question wasn't clear, yes I signalled to the middle of the green, laughing, but also to the back as well (I had to gesture because shouting wouldn't have been heard given the conditions).

The OP then replied with something, I still know not what, and I laughed (out of politeness for what presumed was a joke - I actually couldn't/didn't hear) but it was claimed it was a 'North-Western' banter...

OP was also 10yrds from green side when he asked. Myself and our PP, where 30/40yrds away walking down. OP played his shot before me or our PP had even got to our balls.

Also as context to the 'claim', in between the OP and the green, was a pot bunker. The flag some 10 yrds on. The OP had to flop it over the bunker and stop it on extremely fast greens to get close. His FC (me) was just off in two and had a shot. Quite simply, he did what everyone would do, and played a wee flop over it - it ran on well past the hole. The was no other shot or club, he could/would have taken to better the outcome, despite the OP's claims of "I wouldn't have used my shortest wedge, I would have used a GW instead(!)." This I know, does not have a bearing on any potential ruling but would just like to point out that because the flop wasn't a perfect one, an up and down wasn't made....

I'm sure our host and PP will stay well away from this (and rightly too) but as Player A was losing (I think 3dn at the time) the only comments our fantastic host could say as Player A talked about it (for every single hole after and probably the next 6 years) was "Mind games have started..."

Pete, I love you and your cheeky smile dearly and always will but one day I might post up a rule question about FC's dropping carry bags on tee shot backswings or barracking when your FCs are over a putt to win a hole, ready to go...

Yours

Always and forever

Odders xxxx
Click to expand...

Poetic licence on steroids there.

Hard of hearing, 3 club wind,joking,banter,..........

Stripping it down, because I've read your account 3 times and its hard for me to understand, and I was there, but to clarify and correct a few things:-

1. All words were heard in the conversations and very clearly.

2. The bunker wasnt on the line to the flag, it was 2-3 yards off to my right and I wasnt having to play over it at all.

3. There were two shots on, one was an easier gap wedge chip with a bit of run out, the other which I picked, because I thought that with you being on a shot, I would have to put it to 3-4 feet to get the up and down, instead of just on and a 1-2 putt being enough.

4. I had 3 up and downs that night, and was 1 inch short of doing it on my next shot, so if you want to talk context, you know it's a big part of my game..........

5. You could tell from my face that I was shocked when you walked up to your ball with a wedge instead of a putter.

Yes, I play mind games in good fun, but remember what happened on the 2nd hole when there was a sprinkler head on your line of putt........I brought to your attention that you may get a drop as a local rule, dependent on how near the sprinkler head was to the green, so you then had the option of putting it instead of having to chip it. I didnt have to do that........ You also proceeded to place the ball (not drop), and you didnt mark your ball before doing so.

If I was an absolute stickler for the rules I could have pulled you then (twice).

Its ok mate, we wont fall out on this, and the rest of the match went back to our original typical banter, which was good.

However, I felt that you giving me the wrong info (ok, you meant it as a joke, but I didnt get it) made me change my shot.

If its lose of hole, the match is a draw. If its not loss of hole, you beat me and congratulations.:)

No matter, you may learn an important lesson, at least.
 
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Junior said:
Lets not forget the most important thing here......my 2nd into that tough hole was a belter :) :) :) Sadly, the putt wasnt as good.

Just to add.....there was certainly no deliberate deviousness or underhandedness here.....and all 3 of us knew that. It was just misunderstanding. The game was played in great spirit !!!
Click to expand...

It must have been a great shot in mate (from where either of you were), hence my absolute surprise when I was told that Odvan had played it.;)

For more context, the reason why I wasnt watching both players shots was due to me finding a dropped scorecard on our fairway, which I thought would be from the slow group in front, and it also only had 7 scores on it, so was a current card. The group in front was playing a nike matchplay and we knew one of them, so I went ahead and across to give one of them their scorecard back, which could have been important.

Always the gentleman.......;)
 
Liverbirdie said:
I've looked on the R and A site, and it gives 17 different decisions with regards to incorrect information given by an opponent, but doesn't absolutely advise a situation I incurred tonight.

Generally, giving incorrect information when requested seems to incur loss of hole.

Tonight's scenario:- 2 people playing a match (a non-club related match, but in the NW OOM) and another guy who is also just playing alongside us as a host.

Par 4 Player A is giving player B a shot.

Player A is near the green in two and is next to play.

Player B and the host have hit balls into the green from a distance away but neither shots were seen by player A.

One ball is through the green, the other is approx 8 foot away.

Player A asks player B whose ball is the close one, and whose is through the green. Player B says that his is the close one (it wasn't). Player A then knowing he probably needs to play it very close to the pin tries a flop shot.............

Then Player B walks up to the ball through the green with a wedge........the result of the hole ends up as a halve, but Player A would have taken a different shot option if he would have been given the correct information.

Now the misunderstanding is that player B was "joking", player A didnt realise and picked his shot based on the information given.

Does player B lose the hole?

Obviously the rules dont say such words as sarcasm/joking etc.......it says lots about advising the wrong number of strokes, but I cant see where it says about advising info about saying your ball is one ball, when in fact it wasnt.
Click to expand...
What was wrong with you shuffling your backside up to the green and actually having a look at whose ball it was for yourself before you played your shot? Slow play and holding everyone else up doesn't normally bother you :whistle:

Major clutching at straws again Peter :D
 
Lincoln Quaker said:
What was wrong with you shuffling your backside up to the green and actually having a look at whose ball it was for yourself before you played your shot? Slow play and holding everyone else up doesn't normally bother you :whistle:

Major clutching at straws again Peter :D
Click to expand...

I prefer to rely on the truthfulness on my fellow competitors, as it is a gentlemen's game.

I know I wont get the "popular" vote, but put yourself in the same situation, and how would you feel............
 
Liverbirdie said:
I prefer to rely on the truthfulness on my fellow competitors, as it is a gentlemen's game.

I know I wont get the "popular" vote, but put yourself in the same situation, and how would you feel............
Click to expand...
Gentleman and odvan now that's a statement?????

Seriously I wouldn't believe a word he ever says. I would have checked ;)
 
Lincoln Quaker said:
Gentleman and odvan now that's a statement?????

Seriously I wouldn't believe a word he ever says. I would have checked ;)
Click to expand...

Thanks, I'll have you as a character witness for him.:rofl:

For clarity, I honestly dont think he done it with malicious intent, as he is a better guy than that......however, it did change the decision on shot type and club.
 
I'm lost. The detail may be in there somewhere but I'm blind to it.

Is it player A just short in 2, and player B over the back in 2 but getting a shot?
 
Liverbirdie said:
Thanks, I'll have you as a character witness for him.:rofl:

For clarity, I honestly dont think he done it with malicious intent, as he is a better guy than that
Click to expand...

Peter, my dear, that thought process shouldn't even be in your head. Everybody knows me better than that.

Anyway, that's the last time I'm popping my nuts in the palm of your hand..
 
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