Match Play - play off wrong tee for whole round

[fenwayrich]

Our Seniors Knockout is a yellow tee competition. Two of our members played their match off the white tees using white tee course handicaps. I can't find a specific sanction in the Rules, or in our Competition Conditions. My thoughts on alternative scenarios ar:
1. Both disqualified
2. Replay the match

Any thoughts?

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Why not just let the result stand? Is that not simpler?

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Match result stands

 

[Lucifer MorningStar]

Why not just let the result stand? Is that not simpler?

Seems logical to me especially they clearly either agreed it or wouldn’t have a significant difference in outcome surely even moving the tees forward is there going to be a massive change in shots given.

 

[woofers]

Rule 6.1b(1)? In summary, played from outside teeing area, not cancelled, so no penalty in match play.

 

[Backache]

If they agreed in advance to play off the wrong tees, they are both disqualified I think.
But if they did it in ignorance the result stands.

 

[salfordlad]

Every hole was started from outside the teeing area and no strokes were cancelled. Result stands.

 

[fenwayrich]

Thanks for your input. Decision made after considering the circumstances is that the result stands.

 

[rulefan]

Thanks for your input. Decision made after considering the circumstances is that the result stands.

"no strokes were cancelled" - is the key

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

My understanding of matchplay scenarios such as this is that there is no issue with players agreeing to play off tees other than those identified for the competition as players can decide how to provide the competition with a result of their match in whatever way they so choose.

This could be a toss of a coin; a putting competition round the putting green; playing just 9 holes - or indeed playing off 'yellow' tees when the comp is a 'white tee' competition. All the competition organiser wants is a result of the match. I'm thinking that the only rider is that then comp organizer has to know what's planned and why - then he can OK it.

 

[doublebogey7]

My understanding of matchplay scenarios such as this is that there is no issue with players agreeing to play off tees other than those identified for the competition as players can decide how to provide the competition with a result of their match in whatever way they so choose.

This could be a toss of a coin; a putting competition round the putting green; playing just 9 holes - or indeed playing off 'yellow' tees when the comp is a 'white tee' competition. All the competition organiser wants is a result of the match. I'm thinking that the only rider is that then comp organizer has to know what's planned and why - then he can OK it.

Can you point me to a rule for this. It seems to me that this is down to the ToC, if they state that matches are to be played over a specific course then unless there is another condition that allows players to decide how to decide the result of a match, that the match must be played as for per the ToC's and not simply decided by the toss of a coin.

 

[Steven Rules]

My understanding of matchplay scenarios such as this is that there is no issue with players agreeing to play off tees other than those identified for the competition as players can decide how to provide the competition with a result of their match in whatever way they so choose.

I think you are misunderstanding the nature and rules of match play. if the player and opponent agree not to apply the Rules or a penalty they know applies, and either of those players has started the round, they are both disqualified. Rule 3.2d(4)

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I think you are misunderstanding the nature and rules of match play. if the player and opponent agree not to apply the Rules or a penalty they know applies, and either of those players has started the round, they are both disqualified. Rule 3.2d(4)

I would have thought that they are not agreeing to ignore any Rule of Golf - they are finding an alternative way to producing a result for a match - indeed what does it matter to anyone else how they do that? After all in matchplay are the players not responsible for agreeing the shots given in a handicap KO - whether they get that right or not if all involved agree then that's the end of it; can players not agree to a toss of a coin if they can't find a date to play a match or if something else makes playing the match infeasible; in a four ball match if one player drops out then his partner can play the match alone 2 vs 1 - that's not the agreed format of the comp. Clearly absolutely limited to matchplay. That said it may well be that alternatives have to be permitted by a ToC for a competition.

 

[rulefan]

I think you are misunderstanding the nature and rules of match play. if the player and opponent agree not to apply the Rules or a penalty they know applies, and either of those players has started the round, they are both disqualified. Rule 3.2d(4)

Did they know they were breaking the rules and a penalty applies?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Did they know they were breaking the rules and a penalty applies?

What rulle of golf says that a match must be decided in accordance with the format of the competition? For that being the case, two players cannot decide a match on the toss of a coin - if that's what they deem necessary to produce a result without actually playing.

 

[rulie]

What rulle of golf says that a match must be decided in accordance with the format of the competition? For that being the case, two players cannot decide a match on the toss of a coin - if that's what they deem necessary to produce a result without actually playing.

The "Terms of the Competition" set by the Committee are part of the Rules for that Competition (Rule 1.3a). These ToC usually state the form of play, rounds and order of play of holes during the round.
It may be considered semantics, but the Rules do allow one player to concede the match to the opponent (Rule 3.2b(1), and, quoted from an old Decision (for which the outcome has not changed):
"The is nothing in the Rules of Golf to prohibit players from agreeing to a method of determining which side will concede a match. However, in view of the intention of Rule 1.3 (Agreement to Waive Rules), if players agree to play a match other than in the form prescribed in the conditions of the competition in order to decide which side will concede, both sides should be disqualified under Rule 1.3 for agreeing to exclude the operation of a condition of competition.
If the players agree to use some other method which does not involve playing a match to determine which side will concede, such as a putting competition, tossing a coin, etc., they are not considered to be in breach of Rule 1.3."

 

[Steven Rules]

What rulle of golf says that a match must be decided in accordance with the format of the competition? For that being the case, two players cannot decide a match on the toss of a coin - if that's what they deem necessary to produce a result without actually playing.

That would be the second example in Clarification 1.3b(1)/2, which says:

In Order to Agree to Ignore a Rule or Penalty, Players Must Be Aware the Rule Exists

Rule 1.3b(1) does not apply and there is no penalty if players agree to waive a Rule that they are not aware of or fail to apply a penalty that they do not know exists.

Examples where two players are unaware of a Rule, or where they have failed to apply a penalty, and therefore are not disqualified under Rule 1.3b(1), include:

Before a 36-hole match, two players agree that they will play only 18 holes and whoever is behind at that point will concede the match, not knowing that this agreement does not comply with the Terms of the Competition. The match goes forward on that basis and the player behind after 18 holes concedes the match. Since the players do not know such an agreement is not allowed, the concession stands.

The only thing that saves the players from disqualification is not that the Rules permit the practice, but rather that they are ignorant of the Rules.

Subsitute the above words "...they will play only 18 holes and whoever is behind at that point...", for different words e.g. "....whoever loses a coin toss/putting competition..." and you have the scenario that you are proposing.

The practice is not permitted. The only thing that exempts the players from disqualification is their ignorance of the Rules.

Don't confuse the Rules of match play with the methodology that a club (or individual players) may use to determine who gets awarded a trophy.

 

[rulie]

But the players can use a coin toss to determine who will concede the match. "Let's toss a coin and the loser will concede the match."

 

[Steven Rules]

Ok. Fair point. Using a coin toss before the match commences to determine who will concede the match is different from the scenarios in 1.3b(1)/2, which involve actually playing the match, or part thereof.

Having said that, though, hopefully the Terms of Competition covers the procedure to follow if players are unable to play their match.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Ok. Fair point. Using a coin toss before the match commences to determine who will concede the match is different from the scenarios in 1.3b(1)/2, which involve actually playing the match, or part thereof.

Having said that, though, hopefully the Terms of Competition covers the procedure to follow if players are unable to play their match.

But are you not referring to a breach of the Terms of Competition (which are set by the club) and the Rules of Golf which are not. If the Terms of Competition for a club comp state that players in a matchplay match can decide by mutual consent what approach they will use to determine the outcome of their match. And if the Ts of Comp do not so explicitly state can the club determine on a case-by-case basis whether a proposed approach is acceptable.

Above may be redundant having read and understood earlier post by @rulie … other than this