lost ball query

[Tab373]

Hi played in a 3 ball yesterday played american sixes was having a good crack til we got to our 16th hole which is 170yards over a pond with trees to the right of water and a field/OB to the left Player A hit his ball right in to the trees and we never saw it splash in the water or fly off anywhere. Player B me caught the ball well but just caught the bank of the pond and dropped in pond player c hit it in bunker next to green.on reaching the pond my ball was easy to find took a drop and chipped on and had a 2 putt 5 player C had a 4 with a shot but player A looked for his ball for 5 mins couldnt find it anywhere so just dropped his ball next to the pond chipped on holed the putt saying 4. Now we both said no straight away saying you are out the hole as the ball could of gone anywhere. he replied it must be in the pond so he took a drop. we didnt agree and then he got abit funny with us and refused to talk to us for the last 2 holes. i believe he should of gone back to the tee and played 3 from there as we could not see the end result of his first ball. Who is right as i know next time i play he will make comments about it

 

[AmandaJR]

I'd say you were right as you have to be "virtually certain" the ball is in the hazard and what you describe isn't that...

 

[pbrown7582]

this ^^^^^^

there seems a good chance from what you describe the ball wasnt in the water so back to the tee it is.

 

[bobmac]

When it hit the tree it could have gone anywhere.
5 minutes up, lost ball.

 

[cookelad]

You are correct he should have gone back to the tee as stated above all three (in this case) people have to agree that the ball went in the water otherwise its a lost ball I'm sure if I had rulebook to hand I could quote you a reference to confirm.

If he's going to be an arse about it in a comp in a situation like that I would advise Player A to play 2 balls 1 from in front of the pond and 1 from the tee and raise the question with the pro/rules committee at the end. You are right but at least it keeps him from acting like a child for the last 2/3 holes!

 

[PhilTheFragger]

You have to be CERTAIN that the ball has entered the hazard, if there is doubt as in this case, then 3 off the tee is the correct answer

Rule 26 -1 Relief for ball in water hazard
Rule 27-1c Ball Not Found Within 5 Minutes

If there was any doubt, he should have played a provisional to save time later

Also I hope you let the group behind through :thup:


Fragger

 

[duncan mackie]

as a slight twist to the above responses - when someone takes the full 5 minutes to search for their ball outside a water hazard it is very hard to accept an argument that 'it must be in the water'!

what were you looking for then? :sbox:

 

[chrisd]

You have to be CERTAIN that the ball has entered the hazard, if there is doubt as in this case, then 3 off the tee is the correct answer

Rule 26 -1 Relief for ball in water hazard
Rule 27-1c Ball Not Found Within 5 Minutes

If there was any doubt, he should have played a provisional to save time later

Also I hope you let the group behind through :thup:


Fragger

Agreed, except it's "known or virtually certain" that it is in the hazard that counts, except I am sure that you cant play a provisional if you claim it was lost in a hazard as there are set rules for that eventuality

 

[PhilTheFragger]

Agreed, except it's "known or virtually certain" that it is in the hazard that counts, except I am sure that you cant play a provisional if you claim it was lost in a hazard as there are set rules for that eventuality

Yes what I was saying is that if you are not sure if it is in the hazard or lost outside the hazard, then you can play a provo to save time walking back to the tee.

If the ball is in the hazard then the provo becomes redundent and you take a drop

Its all on page 101 of the 2012-2015 rules golf book that came free with the mag a few months ago

Read and enjoy

Fragger

 

[Imurg]

as a slight twist to the above responses - when someone takes the full 5 minutes to search for their ball outside a water hazard it is very hard to accept an argument that 'it must be in the water'!

what were you looking for then? :sbox:

Not valid here but there could be an instance of this happening.
Take an area of 1st cut rough, slightly longer than normal. No trees, bushes or the like, just a Yellow staked ditch across the fairway.
Player A tries to clear the ditch from 200 yards away. Did he or didn't he?
As there is nowhere else to lose a ball in the area, if the ball can't be found within 5 minutes then it must be in the ditch as it can't be anywhere else.........
You would look for it outside the ditch but if it isn't there then you can be certain or vitrually certain that it's gone in.....

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

It is still just a matter of opinion that the ball went anywhere near the ditch. Ball lost in a water hazard is a matter of fact (given the 'relief' that is accorded) not a matter of opinion or conjecture.

 

[chrisd]

Yes what I was saying is that if you are not sure if it is in the hazard or lost outside the hazard, then you can play a provo to save time walking back to the tee.

If the ball is in the hazard then the provo becomes redundent and you take a drop

Its all on page 101 of the 2012-2015 rules golf book that came free with the mag a few months ago

Read and enjoy

Fragger

The other thing is that the player wouldn't have taken the drop from the correct place as he had no idea where it entered the hazard, given that he wasn't virtually certain or knew that it was in the hazard.

 

[Tab373]

Thanks all for the comments i was pretty certain we were right but thought i would check. Next time i see him i will let him moan about it for a while then hit him with the actual rule.

 

[duncan mackie]

Not valid here but there could be an instance of this happening.
Take an area of 1st cut rough, slightly longer than normal. No trees, bushes or the like, just a Yellow staked ditch across the fairway.
Player A tries to clear the ditch from 200 yards away. Did he or didn't he?
As there is nowhere else to lose a ball in the area, if the ball can't be found within 5 minutes then it must be in the ditch as it can't be anywhere else.........
You would look for it outside the ditch but if it isn't there then you can be certain or vitrually certain that it's gone in.....

whilst I would agree your overall scenario is valid, ie if it's not in plain sight it can be accepted to be in the hazard, I would re-iterate that taking 5 minutes to establish such completely negates the argument that 'it can't be anywhere else'!

 

[Imurg]

Does it say anywhere how long it takes to be certain or virtually certain?
You're entitled to look for your ball for 5 minutes.
In the scenario I gave if, after 5 minutes seaching, the ball can't be found then it has to be in the hazard.
You look in case it isn't......

 

[duncan mackie]

Does it say anywhere how long it takes to be certain or virtually certain?
You're entitled to look for your ball for 5 minutes.
In the scenario I gave if, after 5 minutes seaching, the ball can't be found then it has to be in the hazard.
You look in case it isn't......

I look at it this way -

K is out, so the consideration is VC

on the one hand the longer you look anywhere and fail to find the ball, the more certainty that it's lost in the hazard

on the other hand, the more places that there are to search the more chance that if it's not found in 5 mins it's not in the hazard - the rules tell us "In determining whether “virtual certainty” exists, some of the relevant factors in the area of the water hazard to be considered include topography, turf conditions, grass heights, visibility, weather conditions and the proximity of trees, bushes and abnormal ground conditions."

your example said that there was nothing to loose the ball in the area other than the hazard - I remain of the opinion that in such a case spending 5 minutes 'searching' is entirely counter to that statement. If it takes more than a quick once over then there is obviously significant possibility that the ball remains hidden outside the hazard.

 

[backwoodsman]

Hi played in a 3 ball yesterday played american sixes was having a good crack til we got to our 16th hole which is 170yards over a pond with trees to the right of water and a field/OB to the left Player A hit his ball right in to the trees and we never saw it splash in the water or fly off anywhere. Player B me caught the ball well but just caught the bank of the pond and dropped in pond player c hit it in bunker next to green.on reaching the pond my ball was easy to find took a drop and chipped on and had a 2 putt 5 player C had a 4 with a shot but player A looked for his ball for 5 mins couldnt find it anywhere so just dropped his ball next to the pond chipped on holed the putt saying 4. Now we both said no straight away saying you are out the hole as the ball could of gone anywhere. he replied it must be in the pond so he took a drop. we didnt agree and then he got abit funny with us and refused to talk to us for the last 2 holes. i believe he should of gone back to the tee and played 3 from there as we could not see the end result of his first ball. Who is right as i know next time i play he will make comments about it

Our second has a set up with a sort of similar situation. Par 4, pond at (short) driving length. first cut of grass, then pond, reeds at back of pond, narrow strip behind pond then OOB fence. If you're short and it bounces on the grass, you can usually see it bounce/roll into the pond - albeit not see a splash or very close to. If not quickly found on the fringe of pond, then virtually certain its lost in the hazard. If it goes in on the full and you see the splash, then certain its lost in the hazard (not even virtually). If you don't see it bounce in, or don't see a splash, then it could be in the reeds within the hazard, it could be on the grass behind, or could be over the OOB fence. No certainty at all as to where it is and you really should play a prov. If you can't find the original when you get there, then there's no option but to go back & play another as you can't assume it's in the hazard.

 

[chrisd]

Our second has a set up with a sort of similar situation. Par 4, pond at (short) driving length. first cut of grass, then pond, reeds at back of pond, narrow strip behind pond then OOB fence. If you're short and it bounces on the grass, you can usually see it bounce/roll into the pond - albeit not see a splash or very close to. If not quickly found on the fringe of pond, then virtually certain its lost in the hazard. If it goes in on the full and you see the splash, then certain its lost in the hazard (not even virtually). If you don't see it bounce in, or don't see a splash, then it could be in the reeds within the hazard, it could be on the grass behind, or could be over the OOB fence. No certainty at all as to where it is and you really should play a prov. If you can't find the original when you get there, then there's no option but to go back & play another as you can't assume it's in the hazard.

Or play the provisional as it was obviously played with the assumption that the original ball may not be in the hazard

 

[backwoodsman]

Or play the provisional as it was obviously played with the assumption that the original ball may not be in the hazard

Indeed. (My last sentence was supposed to imply that you hadn't played a prov. I should have put "If, you don't then..." in front of it).