Loose impediments between ball and hole

[cliveb]

Playing in a medal today, my ball ended up nestled down in undergrowth at the base of a hedge. There was nowhere suitable to take a penalty drop so I decided to play it as it lay. I had no backswing so all I could do was stab down on it with a wedge and hope it came out. It moved forward about 18" and came to rest behind a cube-shaped lump of tree/bark about 4" on each side. This was a loose impediment, but I realised that if I moved it the ball would move. So I just had to play the ball as it lay against the lump of wood and hope for the best.

Now for the question. I hadn't actually noticed that lump of wood before, but supposing I *had* noticed it, would I have been allowed to move it before taking that first shot (the stab with a wedge)? Or would that constitute "improving the line of my intended shot"? You're allowed to move loose impediments near your ball before taking a shot, but is something 18" away too far?

 

[MashieNiblick]

Can't see any reason why you couldn't have moved it.

Rule 23-1 - "Except when both the loose impediment and the ball lie in or touch the same hazard, any loose impediment may be removed without penalty."

Moving a LI is not a proscribed action under Rule 13-2 - Improving Lie, Area of Intended Stance or Swing, or Line of Play.

Nor is there any limit on how far the LI is from your ball. Say your ball was 10 yards from the green and part of a branch had been blown down and was just off the green on your line. You can walk up and move it out of the way.

If you were 100 yards away and did it though you might get pinged for unduly delaying play under Rule 6-7.

Incidently it used to be the case that if you moved a LI within 1 club length of your ball and your ball moved you were deemed to have moved the ball and incurred a penalty automatically. That changed in 2004 but some folks still think it applies. Now such a situation is assesed under Rule 18-2a and you won't be penalised unless you actually caused the ball to move as a result of moving the LI.

 

[Crow]

Another useful one to remember is when taking a drop; you can remove lose impediments from your intended droppong area.

 

[cliveb]

Thanks for the responses. Until you pointed me at rule 13-2 I had not appreciated that improving the line of play was only prohibited by a specific set of actions - I had previously assumed it was just a generic "thou shalt not improve the line of your intended play". Presumably removing a loose impediment doesn't count as "eliminating irregularities of surface".

 

[North Mimms]

Another useful one to remember is when taking a drop; you can remove lose impediments from your intended droppong area.

That's the one that I only remember *after* I have dropped my ball onto a pile a twigs!

 

[rulefan]

Presumably removing a loose impediment doesn't count as "eliminating irregularities of surface".

Correct.
a) A loose impediment is not part of the surface, it is on the surface. If it is embedded (ie in the surface) it is not an LI.
b) Rule 23 gives unconstrained permission to remove an LI, overiding 13-2.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

So some subsidiary clarifications for me. Does this mean that if there is an unrepaired fairway divot hole in the area I am about to take a drop - I can't repair the divot hole prior to taking the drop? What if the divot hole is in the rough? Or what if it is not obviously a divot hole or an animal scrape?

 

[duncan mackie]

So some subsidiary clarifications for me.
1. Does this mean that if there is an unrepaired fairway divot hole in the area I am about to take a drop - I can't repair the divot hole prior to taking the drop?
2. What if the divot hole is in the rough?
3. Or what if it is not obviously a divot hole or an animal scrape?

1. correct
2. same as 1
3. same as 1 and 2

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Even if the divot hole is not 'ahead' of the ball relative to the green prior to me lifting my ball? If so then I guess the rule is that if you are going to take a drop you cannot do anything that may affect your subsequent lie or stance. This would mean, for instance, that if I am about to take a drop at the top of a slope I cannot go back down the slope to replace divots prior to taking the drop (in case my ball rolled back down the slope into divot damage).

That said, I guess that as I approached my ball and could see (from a distance) that I would likely or definately get a drop, I could still replace divots as I approached my ball. At what point would I no longer be able to do that?

 

[louise_a]

Can't see any reason why you couldn't have moved it.

Rule 23-1 - "Except when both the loose impediment and the ball lie in or touch the same hazard, any loose impediment may be removed without penalty."

I was thankful of this post today while playing in a interclub match, opponents ball went in a haazrd but was perfectly playable, she went to move some twigs around the ball, but I remember this post and stopped her so she took a penalty drop instead.

 

[Colin L]

Were the twigs such a problem that she couldn't play the ball?

 

[rulefan]

That said, I guess that as I approached my ball and could see (from a distance) that I would likely or definately get a drop, I could still replace divots as I approached my ball. At what point would I no longer be able to do that?

You should not repair it if is even possible that you will take the drop. The last para of 13-2/0.5 makes it clear that the determing point is immediately prior to the stroke, not when walking towards the ball.

The determination as to whether a player has gained a potential advantage from his actions is made by reference to the situation immediately prior to his stroke. If there is a reasonable possibility that the player's action has created a potential advantage, the player is in breach of Rule 13-2

 

[louise_a]

Were the twigs such a problem that she couldn't play the ball?

I would have given it a go, but she decided not to.

 

[Colin L]

Even if the divot hole is not 'ahead' of the ball relative to the green prior to me lifting my ball? If so then I guess the rule is that if you are going to take a drop you cannot do anything that may affect your subsequent lie or stance. This would mean, for instance, that if I am about to take a drop at the top of a slope I cannot go back down the slope to replace divots prior to taking the drop (in case my ball rolled back down the slope into divot damage).

That said, I guess that as I approached my ball and could see (from a distance) that I would likely or definately get a drop, I could still replace divots as I approached my ball. At what point would I no longer be able to do that?

Duncan was explaining about the area in which the ball is to be dropped (Rule 13-2) as opposed to an area the ball might roll into after being dropped . The answer is the same but from a different rule ie Rule 1-2 which prohibits an action intend to affect the playing of hole by making a physical change to it. That applies to an area you think a dropped ball might roll into (without having to be redropped). See Decision 1-2/3

I don't see any difference regarding how far away you are from your ball when you decide to do this. If you are talking of a conscious thought that you'd better replace the divots because of a strong likelihood of having to drop your ball and of its rolling into a divot hole, it is the same situation no matter when or how far away you thought to do it.

 

[rulefan]

The answer is the same but from a different rule ie Rule 1-2 which prohibits an action intend to affect the playing of hole by making a physical change to it. That applies to an area you think a dropped ball might roll into (without having to be redropped). See Decision 1-2/3

Of course.

But would suggest "... any likelihood.." rather than "... a strong likelihood... "

 

[duncan mackie]

Of course.

But would suggest "... any likelihood.." rather than "... a strong likelihood... "

I think it's best to stick to the wording in the rules, as you quoted earlier

"The determination as to whether a player has gained a potential advantage from his actions is made by reference to the situation immediately prior to his stroke. If there is a reasonable possibility that the player’s action has created a potential advantage, the player is in breach "

rather than bringing likelyhoods into it

 

[rulefan]

Yes, I agree. Was just trying to soften (tighten?) Colin's suggestion.

 

[MashieNiblick]

I was thankful of this post today while playing in a interclub match, opponents ball went in a haazrd but was perfectly playable, she went to move some twigs around the ball, but I remember this post and stopped her so she took a penalty drop instead.

Glad it was helpful. It is easy to forget, not so much in bunkers but on the banks of ditches or in dry water hazards it can be very easy to move a twig or something absent mindedly.

One nasty sting in the tail is that if you do move a LI in a hazard you incur the penalty even if you subsequently decide to take a drop (Decision 13-4/17 Loose Impediment Removed from Water Hazard; Player Then Decides Not to Play from Hazard).

However there is no penalty if you move an LI accidently or when approaching your ball in a hazard so long as it isn't moved in making the backswing and the lie of the ball or area of the intended stance or swing is not improved (Decisions 13-4/13 Accidentally Moving Loose Impediment in Hazard and 13-4/13.5 Player Moves Loose Impediments When Approaching Ball in Hazard).

You are also allowed to move LIs in a hazard in order to find or identify your ball, so long as you replace them (Rule12-1b).

Who would have thought that loose impediments in hazards could be so interesting.

Note to self: must get a life! .

 

[Colin L]

Yes, I agree. Was just trying to soften (tighten?) Colin's suggestion.

Well, I was arguing that by having it in his mind that he would have to/might have to/ might want to take a drop, any repair to an area where his ball could roll to would be a 1-2 breach no matter how far from the ball he had that thought - provided of course that the drop actually took place. So as Duncan says, I'd have been better not saying likelihood at all. All that matters is that the act of repairing is done with the intention of avoiding a bad lie if a drop takes place. That intention might be formed well away from the ball on the player's approach whilst the breach does not occur until the ball is dropped.

Since only the choice of one word is being questioned, I assume my answer to SwingsitlikeHogan was in effect agreed

 

[rulefan]

:thup: