Kind of a provisional drop.....??

[Imurg]

Interesting one yesterday.
Our 9th hole has a ditch about 110 yards from the green.
I'd blocked my drive - no surprise there - and had just over 200 to the pin.
In the first cut, the ball came out hard and low, bouncing in the vicinity of the ditch.
We were looking into the Sun as well and it was tricky to pick up the ball flight.
Fragger thought the ball had gone in the ditch, I wasn't sure and CVG didn't see it at all.

As we got down to the ditch I thought I could see a ball just beyond the green in the collar of rough.
I got my laser out and confirmed that it was a ball but obviously there was no way of knowing if it was mine.
With the prospect of a 250 yard round trip to confirm, we decided that I should "provisionally" drop another ball, play up to the green and then decide which ball was "in play". This was done to save time and seemed the sensible thing to do.

It was my ball at the back so I played on with that...

Thoughts...?

 

[Colin L]

Have I got the picture right? You played your second shot, went forward from there and started your search in the area of the ditch? If so, the ball you dropped could not be a provisional ball because a provisional can only be played before you go forward to start your search.

What you did then was to put another ball into play under Rule 27-1 (stroke and distance) at which point your original ball was out of play. You should have holed out with the second ball. When you then played your original ball it was out of play and had the same status as any stray ball lying around. So you played a wrong ball with a 2 stroke penalty and the requirement to rectify that by playing the correct ball. At this stage, you have accumulated 6 strokes (tee shot + 2nd shot + 1PS for stroke and distance + shot with substituted ball + 2 PS for playing a wrong ball). If you didn't rectify playing the wrong ball you would have failed to hole out and be disqualified. If you did go back to hole out with the ball in play, you had lifted it and breached Rule 18-2. Another penalty and replace the ball. You are now about to play your 9th stroke (your only consolation being that strokes with the wrong ball aren't counted) and might feel more inclined to retire to the bar for a pint.

 

[bobmac]

Have I got the picture right? You played your second shot, went forward from there and started your search in the area of the ditch? If so, the ball you dropped could not be a provisional ball because a provisional can only be played before you go forward to start your search.

What you did then was to put another ball into play under Rule 27-1 (stroke and distance) at which point your original ball was out of play. You should have holed out with the second ball. When you then played your original ball it was out of play and had the same status as any stray ball lying around. So you played a wrong ball with a 2 stroke penalty and the requirement to rectify that by playing the correct ball. At this stage, you have accumulated 6 strokes (tee shot + 2nd shot + 1PS for stroke and distance + shot with substituted ball + 2 PS for playing a wrong ball). If you didn't rectify playing the wrong ball you would have failed to hole out and be disqualified. If you did go back to hole out with the ball in play, you had lifted it and breached Rule 18-2. Another penalty and replace the ball. You are now about to play your 9th stroke (your only consolation being that strokes with the wrong ball aren't counted) and might feel more inclined to retire to the bar for a pint.

Or he could just say, "just as well we're only playing for fun"

 

[Imurg]

So even though I could see a ball which could have been mine - 150 yards away - But can't identify from that distance, I still have to spend 3 minutes walking up to the ball, identify it and possibly have to walk all the way back to play another under penalty.....?

To be honest I didn't even look for the ball as I saw the one beyond the green on the way up to the ditch.
It seemed like the sensible thing to do. - if the ball had not been mine I would have proceeded with the 2nd ball.


Time saving over technicalities......

If it's wrong then it's wrong. But it seems right to me ....

 

[Colin L]

Or he could just say, "just as well we're only playing for fun"

Yes, indeed. There is perhaps a conversation to be had in another thread about the ways in which in bounce games we do things like this to save time etc and no harm done.

Time saving over technicalities......
If it's wrong then it's wrong. But it seems right to me ....

I reckon there are two things here - the explanation of what you did in terms of the Rules and which would have applied in a formal competition and then what you did in presumably a bounce game which made sense to all of you and still makes sense to you. I just did the Rules bit!

 

[bobmac]

So even though I could see a ball which could have been mine - 150 yards away - But can't identify from that distance, I still have to spend 3 minutes walking up to the ball, identify it and possibly have to walk all the way back to play another under penalty.....?

To be honest I didn't even look for the ball as I saw the one beyond the green on the way up to the ditch.
It seemed like the sensible thing to do. - if the ball had not been mine I would have proceeded with the 2nd ball.


Time saving over technicalities......

If it's wrong then it's wrong. But it seems right to me ....

It seems as if the ball could only be in the ditch or at the back of the green.
So to save the long walk of shame, you dropped and played one just in case the ball at the back of the green isn't yours.
In a friendly, sounds perfectly ok to me.
I'm absolutely positive there will be some who dont agree however.

 

[Imurg]

we do things like this to save time etc and no harm done.

So why a Penalty at all? There are instances where play can continue with 2 balls, why not in an instance like this...?

No advantage sought or gained, just saving a bit of time..

The R&A are constantly going on about slow play and here's a ruling that will slow play.

Next time it happens I'll just walk up, identify and if necesary walk back again. If anyone complains I'll quote the Rule at them and see what happens...

 

[Foxholer]

Against the Rules.

Seems very sensible - in a bounce game.

Wrt the accumulation of penalties... Was your drop by the ditch or back where you played your original ball? That could have cost you some more penalties (in Rules-of-Golf play) too!

 

[Imurg]

Am I the only one who finds this alarmingly illogical.......?

A provisional wasn't originally played because the ball was either in the ditch (proceed under penalty drop) or had bounced over.

Being unable to identify a ball due to the distance, added to the possibility that the ball wasn't mine, makes it totally logical to play another from the drop point, get to the green, work out which ball is in play and move on.

And we wonder why we get 5 hour competition rounds......

 

[Colin L]

As I said, I just gave the Rules bit, which I thought the OP might be asking for. I find it hard enough learning and applying the Rules without getting into arguments to justify them or otherwise!

 

[Colin L]

But just a thought, The sole purpose of the provisional ball rule is to save time. You were in doubt about where your second shot had gone. The time-saving moment for playing a provisional was then, not after taking the time to walk forward, look and then walk back again.

 

[Imurg]

As I said, I just gave the Rules bit, which I thought the OP might be asking for. I find it hard enough learning and applying the Rules without getting into arguments to justify them or otherwise!

Not having a go at all Colin - I hoped you'd be around to clarify..

But does it seem a little illogical under the circumstances......

 

[Foxholer]

Am I the only one who finds this alarmingly illogical.......?

A provisional wasn't originally played because the ball was either in the ditch (proceed under penalty drop) or had bounced over.

Being unable to identify a ball due to the distance, added to the possibility that the ball wasn't mine, makes it totally logical to play another from the drop point, get to the green, work out which ball is in play and move on.

And we wonder why we get 5 hour competition rounds......

By your description, I don't believe that you 'know or are virtually certain' that the ball is in the ditch. so (under The Rules) dropping under penalty as if it was in the hazard was wrong anyway.

 

[Imurg]

By your description, I don't believe that you 'know or are virtually certain' that the ball is in the ditch. so (under The Rules) dropping under penalty as if it was in the hazard was wrong anyway.

The only reason for the drop was to save time.
I could easily have spent 3 minutes identifying the ball but that would have slowed play.

So why can I not, in effect, play 2 balls until the first can be identified?

If the ball had been 20 yards away then it's a moot point, but 150 yards away....How can I identify it?
The only way is by wasting time and slowing play.....

 

[Colin L]

The only reason for the drop was to save time.
I could easily have spent 3 minutes identifying the ball but that would have slowed play.

Post #11?

 

[bobmac]

Post #11?

I think Imurg is talking about hitting a provisional from the ditch

 

[Imurg]

But just a thought, The sole purpose of the provisional ball rule is to save time. You were in doubt about where your second shot had gone. The time-saving moment for playing a provisional was then, not after taking the time to walk forward, look and then walk back again.

But there's no need for a provisional immediately after playing the 2nd shot.
The ball is either in the ditch or it isn't - there was no chance of it being lost outside of the ditch - 1st cut of rough and no deeper.

So the ball would not have been "lost".

IN the ditch - proceed under penalty
Out of the ditch - proceed as per usual.

But I couldn't identify without walking forward 150 yards.

Can I ask what everyone else would have done...?


By the way I'm not arguing about the rule - just debating it's reasoning!! Where are these sodding smilies!!!!!!

 

[Foxholer]

The only reason for the drop was to save time.
I could easily have spent 3 minutes identifying the ball but that would have slowed play.

So why can I not, in effect, play 2 balls until the first can be identified?

If the ball had been 20 yards away then it's a moot point, but 150 yards away....How can I identify it?
The only way is by wasting time and slowing play.....

Where was your drop though - at ditch (under penalty) or at place where original was played?

By Rules of Golf (and already said that it was fine not (quite) to as bounce game)
Unless you 'know or are virtually certain' that the ball went into the ditch, then you can't simply play it as if it did.

And you cannot 'go back and play a provisional' either. The 'provisional' must be played before you walk forward. If not, then the dropped ball becomes the ball in play - as soon as it is dropped.

There is also some incentive for speeding the game up because as soon as you have looked in the ditch, you have started your search, so only have 5 minutes to find and identify the ball - though you could probably argue equivalence to the 'walking back and fellow competitors find your ball within the 5 mins but can't get back to identify within the 5 mins' decision. There are plenty of mushrooms that look like balls from a distance - or even through a Laser - so your 'find' is not infallible.

Yes, competition rounds can be longer because of this sort of event, but wouldn't you prefer to get it right than NR or be DQ-ed. Provisionals and the ability to play 2 balls prior to a ruling are actually there to help speed play up, but knowing the rules is the best way of getting a decently paced, trouble free round.

And again, in bounce games ​you can do what you feel best.

 

[MashieNiblick]

So Imurg played, was unsure where the ball had gone, walked up to the ditch and then "provsionally" played a second ball under Rule 26 (Water Hazards) on the basis of the possibility that the original ball might be in the hazard. His original ball was then found behind the green.

If that is the case I think the situation is as covered by Decision 26-1/3.7 - Ball Dropped Under Water Hazard Rule Without It Being Known or Virtually Certain Ball in Hazard; Original Ball Then Found

"Q. A player’s ball is struck towards a water hazard and is not found. It is neither known nor virtually certain that the player’s ball is in the water hazard, but he drops a ball under Rule 26-1b. Before he plays the dropped ball, his original ball is found within the five-minute search period. What is the ruling?

A. It was neither known nor virtually certain that the player’s ball was in the water hazard when he put the substituted ball into play, and, therefore, that ball was incorrectly substituted under an inapplicable Rule.

The player must correct his error under Rule 20-6 by abandoning the substituted ball and continuing play with the original ball. If the original ball was found inside the water hazard, the player may proceed under Rule 26-1.

If the player failed to correct his improper procedure and played the dropped ball, he has proceeded under an inapplicable Rule and incurred a penalty (see Decision 34-3/6). The ruling would be that the player has proceeded under Rule 27-1 (the only Rule that applied to his situation), incurring the one-stroke penalty under that Rule.

Additionally, as he played the ball from a wrong place (i.e. a place not permitted by Rule 27-1), he incurred the general penalty, loss of hole in match play or two strokes in stroke play, for a breach of Rule 27-1.

In stroke play, the Committee must determine whether the player committed a serious breach when he played from the wrong place (Rule 20-7c)."
​

So if that is right I reckon you should be playing your your 6th shot with your original ball, (it's played 2, then a penalty for dropping under inapplicable Rule (3) , plus 2 more for playing from a wrong place (5)).

If you could argue that you were virually certain your ball was in the hazard then Decision 26-1/3.5 - Ball Dropped Under Water Hazard Rule with Knowledge or Virtual Certainty; Original Ball Then Found, would apply. This says

"A. As it was known or virtually certain that the ball was in the water hazard when the player put the substituted ball into play, that ball was correctly substituted and he may not play the original ball.

If the original ball was found in the water hazard and this discovery affects the reference point for proceeding under Rule 26-1b, resulting in the substituted ball having been dropped in a wrong place, the player must correct the error under Rule 20-6. The player must proceed in accordance with any of the applicable options under Rule 26-1 with respect to the correct reference point (see Decisions 20-6/2 and 26-1/16).

Otherwise, Rule 20-6 does not apply and the player must continue play with the dropped ball. In either case, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke under Rule 26-1.

​

In the unlikely event that the original ball was found outside the water hazard, the player must continue with the dropped ball under penalty of one stroke (Rule 26-1)."
​

 

[Imurg]

3-3 - Doubt as to Procedure
a. Procedure
In stroke play, if a competitor is doubtful of his rights or the correct procedure during the play of a hole, he may, without penalty, complete the hole with two balls.
After the doubtful situation has arisen and before taking further action, the competitor must announce to his marker or fellow-competitor that he intends to play two balls and which ball he wishes to count if the Rules permit.
The competitor must report the facts of the situation to the Committee before returning his score card. If he fails to do so, he is disqualified.


3-3/0.5 Guidelines for Determining Which Ball Counts When Player Proceeds Under Rule 3-3
The purpose of Rule 3-3 is to allow a competitor to avoid a penalty when he is in doubt as to the proper procedure. The following are guidelines for determining the ball with which the competitor scores in various situations:



1. If both balls are played in accordance with the Rules, the ball selected counts if the competitor announces in advance his decision to invoke this Rule and announces in advance the ball with which he wishes to score. If the competitor does not announce or select in advance, the score with the original ball counts if played in accordance with the Rules. Otherwise the score with the second ball counts if played in accordance with the Rules.


That says to me that the original ball counts.......