Juniors and competing with adults

[RND]

Now this has really got my goat so i will try and stay calm !!

At my club the committee have decided after "a few complaints from the full members" that no junior playing in a mens competition will win more than £10. They will pay £1 entry fee instead of the usual £2.50 and will play in the same competition with the same players but cant win more than £10. they also notably dont have any choice.

Now 2 weeks ago i was beaten into 4th place by a junior off 5 - i won £18 and he won £10 - how can that be right ?!!

I dont have any kids at the club that play golf so i dont have any axe to grind about my kids but i really strongly feel that our juniors are a superb well behaved bunch who practice hard and play well, there are several who play off single figures as a result of good old fashioned hard work.

My feeling is that they may be driven away by the club to other clubs and the future of our club will be at risk.

what do you think and what does your club do to cope with Juniors who take all the prize money !!

 

[Dodger]

If they pay their money don't see why they can't win the money.
20 years back there was a rule where only single figure juniors could compete in Members comps but over the years that seems to have disappeared and correctly so in my opinion as we need these young'uns as our future and shouldn't be discouraging them.

RND anything to do with your club being 'an old school' club or being run by 'Old Twats'??

 

[Imurg]

At mine, Juniors are allowed into any Competition if they are "vetted" by the Comittee and deemed "Suitable". That means if they play to a reasonable standard and show good knowledge of the rules and respect for the game.

Same entrance fee, same prizes.

Can't see the problem. What's the difference between being beaten by a 5 handicap 15 year old or a 5 handicap 30 year old?

 

[TonyN]

I think some ones a little scard of being embaressed and losing out on a bit of money.

I can hear the thoughts now. 'who does this young man think he is, coming here and winning my money, I have been a member here for 30 years'

 

[theeaglehunter]

What a ludicrous decision; a step back for junior golf development and an acknowledgement of the club living in the past, or certain influential members anyway. Why should any junior of appropriate playing ability be denied the same privileges in competitions as adult members? It is stupid.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

When I was a junior (way back when) we were allowed into normal club events based on ages (fourteen) and had the same rules as the seniors in that you paid your money and took your chance

 

[CarpeDiem]

At my club there are comps that all juniors can enter mainly monthly stabs and medals. However, there are other comps that juniors can only enter if they have a handicap of less than 12 and have permission from the Captain, e.g Mens Club Championship. Any money that they win is theirs, regardless of amount.

In the summer the club runs a weekly comp on thursday nights and its £1 to enter, every week is a different comp e.g. 3 clubs or irons only etc, the winner takes £5, second place, £3 and third place gets their money back. Now the committe is currently debating if juniors will be allowed to play this year because its considered gambling. Does this mean that juniors won't be allowed to play in other mens comps or any comps at all where there is an entry fee because if the thursday nights comp is gambling then so are the mens comps? Not really fair, and to add to the misery juniors have to pay a pound to play in their monthly medals and stabs, but don't win any money (It's to pay for tropheys at the end of the year)

 

[Herbie]

Short sighted club if you ask me(not all members but enough to win the votes)

Young players are a clubs future.
Winning youngsters will leave round about the time they are due for full adult membership in many cases if they have had what they see as an unfair deal or even sooner.(seen this happen often)

Golf clubs should reward the best golf with the best prizes, but sadly some stuffed shirt memberships see it a different way.

I played at one club where youngsters could enter but couldnt win a thing! How stupid is that? When you have committees or memberships with funny ideas its often best (if poss)to dump them as soon as possible.

I was a member at a 'If your face fits' golf club, the one that let juniors enter but win nothing, but they also had a regime of 'favoritism' amongst members, to the point where they would manipulate prize awards according to who you were not how you did, which is why I once, after 36 holes finishing joint 2nd(3rd on countback) only picked up a brolly when the entrance fee was £5(that was in the mid 80s) a brolly that cost £3 in a local golf store, if you saw the rest of the prizes you would understand my point and this kind of thing was frequent and happened to me at least 3 times, but happened to youngsters all the time.

Clubs that alienate youngsters and decent golfers are usually unpleasent clubs to be a member at.Look under the facade at some clubs and just behind the stupidity and ignorance you will see the selfish and the a......s!

 

[Robobum]

Not sure about entry money and prizes at our club but the juniors can enter all the comps but there must be at least one adult member in the 3 ball.

 

[USER1999]

I am clearly in a minority here, so bear with me.

At my club, juniors off a handicap below a certain point, say 12 (can't remember the exact) can enter any senior competition, for handicap purposes only, ie: they cannot win.

The reason being, their handicaps are so often out of date with where their acual playing level is, that they would win everything. The average Junior stableford at my club is won with 50 point plus. When was the last time you scored 50 points.

When they are playing and practicing 15 hours a day in the summer, there is no way their handicaps can keep pace. It is the way it is, not fogeyism or anything else.

If a junior plays off a fair h/cap and I lose, I don't care, it is nice to see, but lose to a junior playing level par off 24, and you will see why they aren't allowed.

Out of interest, a friend of mine playing off 9 was chuffed when he went home to say to his 12 year old son, I shot level par today. So what dad, I shot 2 under (playing off the same 9 h/cap).

 

[HomerJSimpson]

That tells me that either there aren't enough year round events for juniors to maintain a proper and "fair" handicap or there are some issues with the initial cards going in. Of course if they are up there all day in the holidays there game will improve but to get 50+ points of 24 isn't testament to the amount of golf being played but the fact that the handicap initially is wrong or they can't defend it often enough

 

[DCB]

There is also the possibility that the youngster has suddenly started to grow and is turning into a young man. Those weak faded drives of 170 yds from last season are no booming 240yd drives. His iron play has suddenly come together and he is hitting 5iron into greens where before he hit 3 or 5 wood.

My nephew went through this when he was about 13/14. He dropped from 28 - 17 in 3 weeks at the start of the summer holiday that year. If he hadn't had pre season rugby training in the secon half of the hols that summer, he may well have gotten down to single figures.

Many of the juniors at my club seem to go through this stage, and with the grip it and rip it mentality they all have, it is no fun when they outdrive you on all the main driving holes.

 

[Herbie]

I am clearly in a minority here, so bear with me.

At my club, juniors off a handicap below a certain point, say 12 (can't remember the exact) can enter any senior competition, for handicap purposes only, ie: they cannot win.

The reason being, their handicaps are so often out of date with where their acual playing level is, that they would win everything. The average Junior stableford at my club is won with 50 point plus. When was the last time you scored 50 points.

When they are playing and practicing 15 hours a day in the summer, there is no way their handicaps can keep pace. It is the way it is, not fogeyism or anything else.

If a junior plays off a fair h/cap and I lose, I don't care, it is nice to see, but lose to a junior playing level par off 24, and you will see why they aren't allowed.

Out of interest, a friend of mine playing off 9 was chuffed when he went home to say to his 12 year old son, I shot level par today. So what dad, I shot 2 under (playing off the same 9 h/cap).

Im not sure I follow this argument, you must have a unique membership murph. I cannot see you having a significant number of youngsters playing with significant h/c advantage any more than the vast majority of bandits throughout the rest of the membership. I just find it hard to understand that one. Youngsters do very well in comps often because they are fearless and often cocky,as well as better players than the bulk of membership. I have not come across many youngsters that play a false h/c,in fact, youngsters I know, want the lowest h/c they can get for street cred if nothing else and are more likely to get regular cards in than other members, but I have come across loads of adults who have dodgy h/c

 

[USER1999]

They pretty much all want to get cut, it is just impossible to keep up with their progress, until they get to the law of diminishing returns, normally around 5 h/cap.

Seriously, 50 points is needed to win any junior comp, so the better golfers in the junior ranks don't bother with them.

If they enter one comp a month, then in a 4 week slot between comps, anything can happen.

 

[Leftie]

Our clubs seem to be in tune Murph's.

I believe that the idea at our club is that because juniors have the potential of rapidly reducing their h/cap, sometimes on a weekly basis, then the 2 or so junior comps a month are not necessarily enough to keep up.

Juniors are allowed to play in the main monthly medals/staplefords and some Trophy comps but usually only one junior allowed per group - places permitting. I don't think that they pay any entrance fee and therefore do not win any money or vouchers. If they win the medal/stalpeford they get the kudos with their mates and a h/cap cut for being the best junior of the day, and the best adults in the gold and silver divisions get the prizes and h/cap cut.

Even if they win the day on Trophy comps their name does not go on the trophy or Honours board. These are adult comps. The Juniors have their own comps and trophys and even if adults could play in the junior comps for h/cap purposes they wouldn't want to win a junior trophy, would they?

imho this is a good system. It should give the youngsters a grounding in etiquette and behaviour expected and helps to get the b*33ers cut, sometimes on a weekly basis.

 

[theeaglehunter]

You say that the junior comps on their own are not necessarily enough to get some players cut regularly enough, and then say that there are limited places in the more regular adult competitions for juniors (something you seemingly agree with) so presumingly quite a few miss out on places in these; so how can that possibly "help to get the b*33ers cut" ? It means they play in less competitions as their participation in adult events is discouraged by the elder members and they only play in the junior events which as you said yourself are often not regular enough to keep up with players development.

Also this attitude towards youngsters staying in their own competitions etc and not mixing with the adults is surely only going to establish divides within the club? I'm not sure, but I would expect this to be the overall effect.

 

[viscount17]

on the OP;
if the juniors money is going to swell the pot for a competing adult then it is wrong.
If the juniors are playing, and paying, a separate competition within a competition then it is not unreasonable in that it is reducing the outlay to the juniors.

 

[Robobum]

I'm flabergasted at the policy of some of the clubs towards juniors.

Using a junior's potential to drop lots of shots over a half term holiday is absolutely ridiculous. It only highlights a failing towards Juniors on the club's behalf, the Junior organisor should already be on top of this situation. If he doesn't have regular contact with these juniors during their holiday periods when they are regularly at the club then he shouldn't be in that position.

Aging memberships??? Hardly surprising really is it??

Those with potential for the huge h'cap drops are invariably in Div 3 where scores in the mid 40s are not uncommon anyway.

 

[Dodger]

Murph if the better Juniors don't play in the Junior Comps cos they need 50pts to win and they can play in the Senior comps but can't win then where the hell do they get their competitive play from??!!
Don't see the point in allowing them to play for handicap purposes only, they need to be allowed to get the competitive juices flowing or they are going to be playing glorified knockabouts until they are old enough to be allowed to compete.

And Britain wonders why Golf Clubs memberships are ageing.

 

[USER1999]

Our Juniors get free lessons, dedicated practice time, free entry to all Junior opens, not just in the area, but anywhere in the UK, they play in free junior matches against most of the Herts golf clubs too. They also have their medals and stablefords (which I can't enter). During which the clourse is closed to me, often at 11.00 on a Sunday).

I wish I had some of the advantages these kids have. We bend over backwards to assist them. They have full playing rights on the course (except they cannot book a tee time on Sat/Sun before 12, which is to let those who work, and pay the biggest subs to get a weekly game, when the kids play 14 hours a day, for 5 days a week, and about 6 hours at the weekend all summer).

For all this, they pay about £200 per year.

I can't feel sorry for them really.

So they can't enter senior medals, boo hoo.