Irish Handicaps

I have highlighted the three crucial questions asked in regards "banditry" and unless I'm reading it wrong it seems to be a clear case of sloping shoulders in Regards actually tackling any issues and putting the focus on the players to sort it ?

Q Handicap banditry. What can be done by the GUI to stop its spread?

“There is a culture of tolerating handicap cheating which isn’t the case for other forms of cheating with golf… The finger seems to be pointed at the GUI or the branches of the GUI or indeed to club committees to deal with this problem. I don’t think it can be. It is endemic and the only real way of tackling it is at member-to-member level where everybody takes a pro-active approach in dealing with the issue and calling out fellow members on their behaviour and saying it is not going to be tolerated any more.”

Q What are the GUI doing about handicap building?

“There is not a while pile the GUI can do about an individual golfer. It is up to members to deal with this by way of peer review and peer pressure. Our branches carry out handicap audits to make sure the system is being properly applied. It is possible for a club to collude with players in ensuring their handicaps are too high but it isn’t a practice we see very often. If we did see it, we would take action against the club. The club would be suspended until they put their house in order. We have suspended. Thankfully, we have never had to terminate a club’s membership of the GUI.

Q If a golfer sees someone clearly “pulling up” in order to build a handicap, what’s the procedure?

There is no procedure as such. Everybody knows who are the people who are manipulating their handicaps to gain an advantage The answer is, don’t play with them. Refuse to play with those players. Say I am not going to tolerate your behaviour any more and I simply won’t play with you. It if happens that you find yourself playing with somebody who isn’t trying their bestin order to increase their handicap, the answer is to say, I won’t play with you again if you do that next time. If everyone did those things, handicap banditry would be stamped out. And it requires that kind of approach in order to deal with the matter.
 
Phil its wide spread across there and I've seen it with my own eyes and I'm sure the Irish lads will say the same, a friend of mine who we meet up with very year shot 46 pts at The Valley at Portrush playing of 17 he's a former hurler and I've never seen ball striking like that in the Am game honestly ,next day 45 pts at Castlerock in a hoolie playing of 13 as the comp we played in had cut him I'm sure his worst score ever the 4 days was 36 pts.

The point is these scores are not reported back to there home club as its up to the individual to do so, my club always asked for our scores ,our lads always said put 0.4 on our handicaps as we were just on holiday and just there to enjoy it.
 
Happens in my club in NI. People will keep their handicap at the same level or look for a .1. They will 4 putt the last if they arent going to win the comp so that they do not get cut. Then there are the ones who struggle to break 30 points during the summer and then shoot 30 points in the winter playing 12 holes and right across the winter comps their worst score is 24 points. You may say that its because the course is shorter, but its not that short and wouldnt happen every single year...
 
stevek1969 said:
Phil its wide spread across there and I've seen it with my own eyes and I'm sure the Irish lads will say the same, a friend of mine who we meet up with very year shot 46 pts at The Valley at Portrush playing of 17 he's a former hurler and I've never seen ball striking like that in the Am game honestly ,next day 45 pts at Castlerock in a hoolie playing of 13 as the comp we played in had cut him I'm sure his worst score ever the 4 days was 36 pts.

The point is these scores are not reported back to there home club as its up to the individual to do so, my club always asked for our scores ,our lads always said put 0.4 on our handicaps as we were just on holiday and just there to enjoy it.
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Oh defiantly is an issue

A couple of questions if that's ok

When you say these scores are not reported back - in the example you use is the guy shooting these scores in a comp or is it a social meet ? It seems like it's scores being done on a social holiday and they aren't required to be given to the club.

Does your club ask you for scores when you go away on a boys outing to away courses ?

There seems to be clearly an issue in regards Handicappinf in Ireland but it seems that the governing body don't seem to want to step in and do something ( from that interview ) and want to clubs to step up and indeed the members - which seems to me to be sloppy shoulders ?
 
I played Ardglass a few years ago and I had a look at the results on the board. If you didn't score mid 40's points you had no chance of being in the prizes and there were even a couple of scores in the 50's!!
 
We aren't too bad at our club as we play singles comps every Saturday however there are boys who don't play them and just play the min amount to maintain a handicap. A major issue at Southern Ireland courses I believe is that they play more pairs comps than singles.
I spoke with our handicap sec at the years start and we discussed the problem and he said there were changes on route to try to help that situ, but there is only so much can be done.
 
Liverpoolphil said:
Oh defiantly is an issue

A couple of questions if that's ok

When you say these scores are not reported back - in the example you use is the guy shooting these scores in a comp or is it a social meet ? It seems like it's scores being done on a social holiday and they aren't required to be given to the club.

Does your club ask you for scores when you go away on a boys outing to away courses ?

There seems to be clearly an issue in regards Handicappinf in Ireland but it seems that the governing body don't seem to want to step in and do something ( from that interview ) and want to clubs to step up and indeed the members - which seems to me to be sloppy shoulders ?
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No problem Phil ,this is a major 4 day comp over 4 courses with over 600 guys playing in it ,we just used used as a holiday but its play of the medal tees and you should report your scores as the who ever wins each day gets cut for the comp.

If we away for the day and play no they don't ask but if replay in an Open our scores are recorded anyway using the HDID System but a couple of clubs use Master scoreboard i think it is we just report back to our club ourselves, its a game we play to better ourselves and play as low as we can.

Its defiantly a case of the sloppy shoulder, but not all Irish clubs are like that, i no a lads form Southern Ireland who over the years I've played with them there handicaps have came well down they say its what playing is all about.
 
stevek1969 said:
No problem Phil ,this is a major 4 day comp over 4 courses with over 600 guys playing in it ,we just used used as a holiday but its play of the medal tees and you should report your scores as the who ever wins each day gets cut for the comp.
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That sounds like something that should be a HC qualifier - pretty much like what the Eden Tournament is at St Andrews. Is it off full HC etc ?
If it's under Qualfiying Comp conditions then it should be a HC qualifier - that's where your governing body need to step in. Is it run by the clubs ?

Unless it's like the Trilby Tour and they play off 3/4 and it's organised by a non affiliated organisation.

If we away for the day and play no they don't ask but if replay in an Open our scores are recorded anyway using the HDID System but a couple of clubs use Master scoreboard i think it is we just report back to our club ourselves, its a game we play to better ourselves and play as low as we can.
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I think 99% of people do play it to better ourselves and the best marker for that is our HC - take this forum for example, I would hazard a guess that every single one of us wants our HC to lower. Unfortunately there is a minority who are only interested in some prizes on offer and will ensure they have a HC that allows them to win those comps , and it appears to be the comps that have a small amount of television air time.

Its defiantly a case of the sloppy shoulder, but not all Irish clubs are like that, i no a lads form Southern Ireland who over the years I've played with them there handicaps have came well down they say its what playing is all about.
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I expect it's prob a mix at the moment - there will no doubt be plenty of clubs who ensure their members play to a HC that is correct to the best of their ability - it's just a shame that there is some that just don't bother and prob don't really care that a member of there's maybe an "internet sensation" for all the wrong reasons.

Cheers for the responses :thus:

At least we aren't as bad as our American counterparts -:D
 
Hi Guys , ,listened to the pod cast yesterday & tweeted the GUI in reply that its a cop out to expect ordinary members to sort the problem when some clubs are not only turning a blind eye but using these players to win regional & national comps , i kept getting the official "if you know of ......... then report it and we will investigate

, its rife down here lads & majority of ordinary members dont want the hassle & grief that can come of reporting it ..

Got discussing 1 club & 1 particular player with a Provincial branch member , he assured the player got cut 3 shots in the review , yes after they won a national event with him (& partner) prominent

Ah Jaypers dont get me started ..
 
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bladeplayer said:
Its reassuring to hear ye guys took the same conclusions from the interview as i did ,
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I think one of the worst things is they realise there is a problem - but don't seem to actually want to tackle it. They have the authority to remove the right for a club to be able to hold official HC comps which would in turn stop people having official HC's - that sort of threat would carry weight behind it
 
If it's become as endemic as suggested then it's going to be a huge task for anybody to sort out.

I think that the GUI is right to a degree in that it has to be driven by the grassroots golfers.

If everybody knows about it but turns a blind eye, or shrugs and mutters, then there isn't much that the GUI or clubs can do.
The average golfer has to want to see handicap manipulation eradicated, it appears that at present they don't particularly care, or perhaps feel that the weight against them is too great.

Manipulators have to be confronted and told that they're not welcome, that isn't easy at the scale reported.

Perhaps the Scottish, Welsh and English Unions should ban Irish golfers from entering their competitions, yes this would impact on the honest competitors but it might take that sort of shift to convince them that they need to start dealing with the cheats.

In my opinion only once the core of golfers start to show that they've had enough and are willing to out the manipulators can the GUI and the clubs start to act with any authority.
 
If the problem is that bad could you not increase the number of scratch tournaments.

OK if you are a 10 handicap you won't ever win, but will make you work harder.
 
Even the kids are at it over there! A 22 handicapper won the Junior National AG tournament at -9 handicap on a course he had played once before, I think only 2 others even beat their handicaps!
 
I think its laughable that the GUI was singled out as the example. Cheating happens in every club in every county. Wasnt that long ago Nairn was in the press, guys on here laughing at the winners of trilby events etc. It needs addressing as a whole.
The GUI has made steps to stop handicap massaging in the form of the ten 0.1's rules etc but fact of the matter is that it takes the players to govern, not the unions, at least one guy in each group to have the balls to call the cheats out, UK & Ire wide and that will begin to impact the perceived bandits.
 
TheDiablo said:
Even the kids are at it over there! A 22 handicapper won the Junior National AG tournament at -9 handicap on a course he had played once before, I think only 2 others even beat their handicaps!
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Kids are a different kettle of fish, the learning and skill curve at junior level is much sharper and improvement happens at a much faster rate, all across the world. Junior golf should be viewed as the accelerated ability area as it really is. I wouldnt take any junior on for money as rhey are constantly inproving.
 
Dasit said:
If the problem is that bad could you not increase the number of scratch tournaments.

OK if you are a 10 handicap you won't ever win, but will make you work harder.
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The easiest way to stop it happening is for certain tournaments to stop offering prizes that make it worthwhile for certain individuals to sandbag their HC

Offering holidays worth over a thousand pounds just encourages people

Also organisers of certain competitions also need to start ensuring the same certain people aren't allowed in the events. They could also become Congu Affliated so that their events become Handicap qualifiers so that if someone magically shoots way better than their HC they get the reward of a HC Reduction
 
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