Injury claims within golf - double standards ?

[Oddsocks]

The recent thread on golfing claims has made my blood boil in regards to a double standard that seems to be present within the game.

Why is it that clubman player who in my eyes can only expected to make errors or play wayward shots can be sued for hitting a wayward ball even though he shouted fore, yet pro's who are meant to be the very pinnacle of this game can hit people week in week out and on most occasions without a fore shout walk with with the only expense being a signed glove, which was no doubt a freebie!

It's seems that there is almost a " if I get hit I'm claiming " attitude at club level but " it's ok if I get hit " at pro spectator level.

I think the crunch of it for me is the fact that normal working people are getting hit with big claims and expensive settlements when its not unknown that unemployment is still high and a good percentage of working people are barely surviving, yet pro's making hundreds of thousands of pounds weekly see no financial penalty for such actions.

I would personally like to see a disclaimer signed as part of your membership of green fee that rules out any possibility to claim at club golf level, as for the one in Scotland where the victim didn't take cover because he didn't know what fore meant was laughable and should never have made it to the court room.

Would you claim if you was hit?

 

[chrisd]

I've been hit 3 times Baz and it flippin hurts but I'd not dream of claiming.

An idiot hit onto the green in an away game a couple of weeks ago, agreed he couldn't see us but his group teed up behind us in the comp and he should have known we were there. The ball flew in and thudded to a stop just past us, I can't promise that if I had been hit I wouldn't have thought about what to do, otherwise for me, all other hits, and near misses, are just the risk we agree to take when playing this game

 

[Smiffy]

I think you'll find that on the ticket to spectate at a golf tournament there will be a disclaimer with regards being hit by a golf ball.
No such disclaimer at your local course.

 

[Blue in Munich]

Would I claim? That would depend entirely on the circumstances, but depending on the level of injury I'd seriously consider it. If it is something that could reasonably been foreseen and results in injuries serious enough to substantially reduce my quality of life, or which means I can't work and so costs me money, why shouldn't I?

 

[Oddsocks]

Chris , I have been on both sides of the coin. I was hit in the nugget (explains a lot) but with a fore shout in my opinion the player couldn't have done much more. It wads hole where two holes run parallel to each other in opposite directions and share the roughy respectively. Apart from the course in question sticking a driving range net up to devide the holes the risk is always going to be there. Hindsight says we should have stepped to the left side of our fairway while they were teeing off but that's it. Yes I ended up with concussion, yes I felt sick, but a sincere apology was enough.

On the flip I hit someone after probably my longest drive I've every hit. He was well out of range as I know my carry distance to the point he was at. We all shouted but one pitch and the ball hit him that hard that he was knocked to the ground. I couldn't of apologised enough and offered my golf insurance details to which he replied " it hurt but it happens, a beer will do "

As Smiffy said if a disclaimer is there at pro level, why can't it be adequate at clubman level?

 

[Smiffy]

If a disclaimer is there at pro level, why can't it be adequate at clubman level?

Problem is that you would have to have disclaimer notices up everywhere for them to guarantee to be seen.
I've played plenty of courses which are on common ground and dog walkers etc. are out for the day enjoying the sunshine.
They can enter the course from anywhere, so how do you make everybody aware?

 

[Hobbit]

I've been hit on 4 occasions, twice needing a stay in hospital. The most recent leading to ongoing dental work. Should I have to pay for the dental work that is currently running into hundreds of pounds?

If I was on someone else's fairway I'd be inclined to say a lot of the blame rests with me. But as I was on a green putting out I'm inclined to say that the other golfer, playing a different hole, should shoulder the majority of the blame.

As to the disclaimer on tickets; I'd expect a decent solicitor to be able to show that to be worthless. No one is outside the law of the land, and a disclaimer 'flouting' the law is generally pretty much not worth the paper its written on.

 

[JohnnyDee]

Interesting discussion and certainly the conditions on the ticket (here's Wentworth PGA from the weekend) cover this point up front and immediately.

I'm no expert on legal matters but do also wonder whether a decent 'brief' could bring a test case to see if these kind of disclaimers could be tested as to their water tightness in law.

 

[Imurg]

Would I claim? That would depend entirely on the circumstances, but depending on the level of injury I'd seriously consider it. If it is something that could reasonably been foreseen and results in injuries serious enough to substantially reduce my quality of life, or which means I can't work and so costs me money, why shouldn't I?

+1.

As regards the Pro circuit....
You go to a golf tournament to spectate. As balls are flying around, there is a possibility of being hit. Being aware gives you more than a fighting chance of seeing and dodging a ball.
This doesnt absolve the Player of the need to shout though...
Shouting should be mandatory if the ball is potentially going to hit anyone and failure to do so should result in some form of penalty - not necessarily monetary.
But the spectator has to take some responsibility... They are putting themselves in the line of fire and should take all precautions to protect themselves. This, surprisingly, involves watching the ball...I've been to many an event where people simply wander along the rope-line, paying little or no attention to play. A shout from 300 yards away isn't going to protect those people who are not taking some steps in self preservation.

 

[duncan mackie]

Interesting discussion and certainly the conditions on the ticket (here's Wentworth PGA from the weekend) cover this point up front and immediately.

I'm no expert on legal matters but do also wonder whether a decent 'brief' could bring a test case to see if these kind of disclaimers could be tested as to their water tightness in law.

View attachment 15459

The ticket recognises that you cannot contract out of responsibility completely ("to the extent permissible by law...").

The basis in law for the cases referenced recently has been that the parties found liable haven't taken sufficient action in respect of a recognised risk ie to some degree the accident was forseeable.

If the recognition of the specific risk is with the spectators then they also have responsibilities.

As an extreme example - if a spectator walked directly across in front of the teeing ground and was seen by the player but he went ahead and played on the basis that he probably wouldn't hit him but might, or some people were standing on the fairway exactly where the player was aiming to land his ball, he would almost certainly be found liable.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Why we have a formal annual risk course assessment, and as a result of this at most tees there is a sign warning players of key potential risks on the hole. Seems sensible though was poo-poo'd as OTT / Nanny State / HSE interfering etc when I mentioned this here last year. Simply protecting the club from risk of litigation and warning players themselves.

So for example for our 9th there is a warning to watch out for stray balls hit from from the 8th tee - the holes run parallel in opposite directions and a fair number of tee shots from 8th end up on 9th fairway or in the shared rough.

 

[JohnnyDee]

The ticket recognises that you cannot contract out of responsibility completely ("to the extent permissible by law...").

The basis in law for the cases referenced recently has been that the parties found liable haven't taken sufficient action in respect of a recognised risk ie to some degree the accident was forseeable.

If the recognition of the specific risk is with the spectators then they also have responsibilities.

As an extreme example - if a spectator walked directly across in front of the teeing ground and was seen by the player but he went ahead and played on the basis that he probably wouldn't hit him but might, or some people were standing on the fairway exactly where the player was aiming to land his ball, he would almost certainly be found liable.

I'm sure you're right here.

I do often wonder how hard can it be for a Pro and their caddy to shout 'Fore' as soon as they see an off line shot. All too often we see a close-up of their anxious expression (anxious as the noughts are rapidly disappearing from their winnings cheque) only to be followed by an outstretched arm and a ludicrously halfhearted shout much too late to alert spectators 200+ yards away.

I believe both tours should make it encumbent on the player to shout or else be fined or docked shots for a breach.

One of the first things we learn in the game is it's appropriate to shout fore if there is a danger of someone getting hit/hurt. Surely the finest exponents of the game should be leading by example.

 

[duncan mackie]

I'm sure you're right here.

I do often wonder how hard can it be for a Pro and their caddy to shout 'Fore' as soon as they see an off line shot. All too often we see a close-up of their anxious expression (anxious as the noughts are rapidly disappearing from their winnings cheque) only to be followed by an outstretched arm and a ludicrously halfhearted shout much too late to alert spectators 200+ yards away.

I believe both tours should make it encumbent on the player to shout or else be fined or docked shots for a breach.

One of the first things we learn in the game is it's appropriate to shout fore if there is a danger of someone getting hit/hurt. Surely the finest exponents of the game should be leading by example.

As ever there are 2 sides to this issue of professionals shouting fore (so that the microphones pick it up and the off course commentators praise rather than pilory them).
Frequently there is a shout made by the caddie but it's not picked up by the microphones that have been carefully set up to avoid picking up crowd noise! Also the marshals are set up to indicate not only to the crowd direct but specifically to marshals in the area to be able to issue a warning (that also isn't picked up by the live mikes 300 yards away).

That said, there are also players who clearly don't like calling attention to their poor shots (Par3 and approach ones commonly) - and that's the kind view...

Completely agree that the tours should be taking action where they see poor behaviour - and they have ringside seats and all the necessary info.

 

[chrisd]

Like most courses we have adjoining fairways, ours being mainly wooded between them. Unfortunately our course is close to the M20 and the noise can be enough to make a Fore shout inaudible from a distance particularly when the wind is blowing. Certain holes are always risky from stray tee shots and, yes, like BIM and Hobbit, if I was hit and there was no shout I'd be tempted to take action if the injury proved costly.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Caddies and Pro in Europe frequently shout fore and also Euopeans playing on the U.S.Pga

But the U.S. Players frequently don't shout fore nor do their caddies and I believe it's because they want a favourable bounce

There is no excuse not to shot fore - it's good manners and etiquette to do so and could stop someone getting hurt

Any player not shouting should be fined and even banned

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I will shout fore if a ball is heading out of sight and even vaguely in the direction of others (and probably very unlikely to go anywhere particularly near them) on the basis that these players will hear my call and be aware of a ball heading their direction - and so are more likely to spot where my ball goes. Saves time hunting for, or perhaps losing, a ball.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I played hard ball sports at club level for many years, cricket and hockey. I now play golf. In all three I knew, and know, the risks when I walk on the pitch/course. If someone is deliberately negligent ie hitting a ball when you are clearly in range or doing a Happy Gilmour across a fairway then you are fair game in the same way it is clear in hockey or cricket if someone is trying to deliberately hurt you. Anything else is at your own risk as far as I am concerned and I would not dream of suing. I got whacked in both previous sports, it is part of the game.

I hate the legal culture that we now have.

 

[Slab]

Surely prevention is far better than having insurance salesmen in the pro shop

Of course you have to shout fore but I’m not sure a player should be teeing off in the first place when players are on adjoining fairway that’s anywhere near your typical shot distance

Come to think of it do you think your club does enough where the course has adjacent holes (with barely any separation) that simply scream caution when teeing off, or is it just left to the players to be the fall guy?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Surely prevention is far better than having insurance salesmen in the pro shop

Of course you have to shout fore but I’m not sure a player should be teeing off in the first place when players are on adjoining fairway that’s anywhere near your typical shot distance

Come to think of it do you think your club does enough where the course has adjacent holes (with barely any separation) that simply scream caution when teeing off, or is it just left to the players to be the fall guy?

Games will never be finished if people wait until players leave adjoining fairways -

What shoud clubs do ?

No one can predict a slice or a duck hook that has the possibility of going onto an adjoining fairway

 

[FairwayDodger]

The disclaimers aren't worth anything if the club and/or player act in a negligent manner. Same with all the disclaimers you might sign before taking part in any sort of activity - if the operator acts negligently they can be sued.

I am not a lawyer so this is based on my vague recollection of conversations with HID (who is)!