In The Hole Or Not?

[smange]

Some of you may also have seen this on twitter earlier and it has got a bit of a discussion going on there as to what the ruling is.

Tee shot on par 3 lands and plugs like this



Another angle



So is this a hole in one as when pitchmark is repaired ball and ball replaced in same position it will be in hole or is ball replaced on edge of hole after repairing or is it a case of hole being damaged and player not allowed to touch it and has to be repaired by committee and then where does ball go (or have I made an imaginary rule in the last bit)

So rules guys what is the correct ruling in this instance?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I reckon its not in the hole

 

[Foxholer]

Not in the hole.

Definition from Rules:

Holed
A ball is “holed” when it is at rest within the circumference of the hole and all of it is below the level of the lip of the hole.

 

[Colin L]

The ball would have to be played as it lies or replaced on the edge of the hole after the pitch mark was repaired.

See Decision 16/3

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-16/#d16-3

 

[London mike 61]

Some of you may also have seen this on twitter earlier and it has got a bit of a discussion going on there as to what the ruling is.

Tee shot on par 3 lands and plugs like this

View attachment 11721

Another angle

View attachment 11722

So is this a hole in one as when pitchmark is repaired ball and ball replaced in same position it will be in hole or is ball replaced on edge of hole after repairing or is it a case of hole being damaged and player not allowed to touch it and has to be repaired by committee and then where does ball go (or have I made an imaginary rule in the last bit)

So rules guys what is the correct ruling in this instance?

Life's a bitch!

 

[smange]

The ball would have to be played as it lies or replaced on the edge of the hole after the pitch mark was repaired.

See Decision 16/3

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-16/#d16-3

As I suspected Colin, thanks for the actual rule though :thup:

 

[davemc1]

I don't know the rule either way but, I'd be sick because it more or less is. And at the same time gutted because in my heart I knew it wasn't. Nightmare

 

[palindromicbob]

I don't know the rule either way but, I'd be sick because it more or less is. And at the same time gutted because in my heart I knew it wasn't. Nightmare

You should know the rule now though

gotta agree though. You'll never have an easier or more sickening putt on a hole. Imagine it was your third off the tee on a par 3 after putting first OOB. You'd be walking off disappointed with bogey after 3 from the tee.

 

[CMAC]

a miss is as good as a mile.

seems pretty obviously NOT in the hole

 

[backwoodsman]

The ball as it lies in the photo is most definitely not in the hole. But I wonder if the twitter discussion was more about whether a HIO could result after the ball was lifted, pitch mark repaired and ball replaced? Any chance of a link to the twitter feed?

IMO FWIW if ball was lifted and replaced then I don't see how it would not fall into hole and so the discussion then revolves around whether the ball was ever at rest after being replaced. If a ball is replaced, and is never at rest then it should be placed at nearest point NNTH where it will stay at rest. If ball is replaced and at rest, Decision 20-3d/1 clearly says that if it then moves and rolls into the hole, was holed with previous shot. What I can't quite get my head round is the implication of the latter part of decision 20-3d/1 which says if ball is overhanging the hole then rule 16-2 overrides rule 20-3d. Does that mean you effectively get another chance of "10 seconds to see if it drops" (and thereby, in this instance, get your HOI)? Experts please..

Ps: I note Colins post about decision 16-3 but I'm not convinced that in the photo the ball would count as "embedded in the side of the hole" ? But perhaps it does?

 

[Colin L]

i have no doubt it is embedded - part of the ball will be below the surface of the ground. Whether you think it is "in the side of the hole" is perhaps not too important. Your options are in any case to play it as it lies or to lift it, repair the ball mark, place it on the lip and play it. I wouldn't allow the ball to be placed such that it was overhanging the hole and if the placed ball fell into the hole in the brief time it would take to place it and tap it in, I doubt if I would accept that it had been at rest unless there had been a clearly evident gust of wind to cause the ball to move.

 

[MashieNiblick]

Colin why would you not allow the ball to be replaced overhanging the hole? The reference in 20-3d/1 to Rule 16-2 allows for this possibility and from the picture in the OP it would seem that this would be the correct place to place the ball as some of the ball is over the edge of the hole. At that point Rule 16-2 then applies and you can wait 10 seconds before tapping in.

 

[backwoodsman]

Happily accept it's "embedded" but Colin's post 11 and Mashie's post 12 illustrate quite nicely why I'm struggling with the second half of decision 20-3d/1.

 

[Colin L]

Colin why would you not allow the ball to be replaced overhanging the hole? The reference in 20-3d/1 to Rule 16-2 allows for this possibility and from the picture in the OP it would seem that this would be the correct place to place the ball as some of the ball is over the edge of the hole. At that point Rule 16-2 then applies and you can wait 10 seconds before tapping in.

Hmmm. How about because once the repair has been made, the player has to "place his ball on the lip of the hole" not replace it where it had been? He can't replace because after the repair the exact spot to replace on is now thin air. The original lie has been altered and he has to place the ball in the nearest similar lie.

That's just me looking for reasons for the gut feeling that the player should not be allowed the benefit of deliberately placing his ball precariously overhanging the hole and then waiting 10 secs for it to fall in. So what is the argument for allowing him to do so?

Mind you I think most of us would just tap the ball in from where it was and avoid this issue

 

[chrisd]

how about, the player marks and lifts the ball and repairs the indention, places his ball (now at rest) on the lip and a gust of wind blows it in the hole?

 

[MashieNiblick]

Thanks Colin.

I think the argument for placing the ball overhanging the hole (precariously or other wise ) is that that is where the ball was before being lifted and the mark was repaired. Of course the ball must be able to come to rest on that point. In my mind the fact that decision 20-3d/1 allows for this suggests there must be situations in which it is the correct action. From the picture this looks like a candidate.

 

[Colin L]

Mashie - I can't find a decent argument against that - for the moment Essentially, I can't think of anything that says you can't, and if that is the case, then you can.

It may be sad, but it is certainly true that my gut feelings do not have any status in the Rules of Golf.

 

[rulefan]

how about, the player marks and lifts the ball and repairs the indention, places his ball (now at rest) on the lip and a gust of wind blows it in the hole?

If the ball was overhanging the hole before it was lifted, then he is deemed to have holed out with his last stroke but must add a penalty stroke. Rule 16-2.

If it wasn't overhanging, then no penalty.

 

[Colin L]

Mashie - I can't find a decent argument against that - for the moment Essentially, I can't think of anything that says you can't, and if that is the case, then you can.

It may be sad, but it is certainly true that my gut feelings do not have any status in the Rules of Golf.

Aha! It was a brief moment. Let me agree that the player can place his ball overhanging the hole.

But Decision 16-2/0.5 tells us that if an overhanging ball that has been lifted and replaced then falls into the hole it is deemed to have been holed out with the last stroke and you must add a penalty stroke. When the ball was marked and lifted it must have been at rest and we must consider that it is at rest when replaced. 20-3d/1 tells us that if the ball was overhanging the hole, the provisions of R16-2 override Rule 20-3d.

 

[duncan mackie]

Aha! It was a brief moment. Let me agree that the player can place his ball overhanging the hole.

But Decision 16-2/0.5 tells us that if an overhanging ball that has been lifted and replaced then falls into the hole it is deemed to have been holed out with the last stroke and you must add a penalty stroke. When the ball was marked and lifted it must have been at rest and we must consider that it is at rest when replaced. 20-3d/1 tells us that if the ball was overhanging the hole, the provisions of R16-2 override Rule 20-3d.

:thup:

edit- to be a little more constructive I should prbably point out that most people have a very simple interpretation of 16-2 eg I get 10 seconds after I walk up to the hole for it to fall in.

it is more wide ranging that that; a ball overhanging the hole is deemed to be at rest after 10 seconds and, once at rest, a ball overhanging the hole that subsequently falls in is holed +1 shot. This makes things nice and simple because the issue of whether a replaced ball in such a situation is at rest or not becomes irrelevant to the score!