Here's one for ye...

[davemc1]

Tee shot, he hooks his ball into the trees left of the fairway, he says to his partners I will play a provisional, he hits the provisional down the centre of the fairway. He leaves the tee and goes to look for his original ball after a few minutes he eventually finds his ball,his playing partners then move to where their balls are and one of them throws his provisional back to him. The player goes to his bag for a club, incredibly when he goes back to his original ball he can't find it,after looking for it for a short period, his 5 minutes are now up.He decides to go back to the 1st tee and play what will be his third ball off the tee.1/ How many is he playing off the tee with his 3rd ball ?2/ What is the correct procedure ?

a society question, on their website. hope non of them are on the forum also

many thanks

 

[duncan mackie]

the original ball is lost and the provisional ball is in play

unless he picked it up, or requested his fellow competitor to pick it up for him, his ball in play has been moved by an outside agency and he is required to replace it (drop a ball as near as possible to his best estimate of where it was without penalty). He would have been playing his 4th shot from there.

as he played his next ball from the tee he is considered to be playing under 27-1 for the provisional.

tee shot (original)
3 off the tee (provisional)
5 off the tee (next shot from tee)

 

[davemc1]

Thanks for that :thup:

If WE'RE right we'll split the prize. 1 1/2 logo'd srixon distance balls coming your way :rofl:

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

the original ball is lost and the provisional ball is in play

unless he picked it up, or requested his fellow competitor to pick it up for him, his ball in play has been moved by an outside agency and he is required to replace it (drop a ball as near as possible to his best estimate of where it was without penalty). He would have been playing his 4th shot from there.

as he played his next ball from the tee he is considered to be playing under 27-1 for the provisional.

tee shot (original)
3 off the tee (provisional)
5 off the tee (next shot from tee)

Not questioning you at all, just trying to understand this duncan. When he originally found the first ball, why wouldn't this remove the provisional completely, as I thought a provisional ball had no status once the first ball was found?

 

[duncan mackie]

Not questioning you at all, just trying to understand this duncan. When he originally found the first ball, why wouldn't this remove the provisional completely, as I thought a provisional ball had no status once the first ball was found?

it's a good question! basically for a ball not to be lost after a stroke it has to stay found! if you prefer to think of it as 'lost again' after the same stroke then that can be easier - in which case the ball played provisionally upon that ball having been lost after the last stroke made at it becomes the ball in play.

it happens a lot more than might be thought; although there's not always a provisional involved of course.

relevant decisions are 27/3; 27-2b/9 & 27-2b/10

 

[Ethan]

it's a good question! basically for a ball not to be lost after a stroke it has to stay found! if you prefer to think of it as 'lost again' after the same stroke then that can be easier - in which case the ball played provisionally upon that ball having been lost after the last stroke made at it becomes the ball in play.

it happens a lot more than might be thought; although there's not always a provisional involved of course.

relevant decisions are 27/3; 27-2b/9 & 27-2b/10

I thought that the instant the first ball was found, the provo is out of play.

Then if the first ball is subsequently lost, by whatever means, the option to then play the provo no longer applies, so it doesn't matter if it is in the pocket or sitting in the fairway and the only option is a walk back to the tee and play 3.

 

[duncan mackie]

I thought that the instant the first ball was found, the provo is out of play.

Then if the first ball is subsequently lost, by whatever means, the option to then play the provisional no longer applies, so it doesn't matter if it is in the pocket or sitting in the fairway and the only option is a walk back to the tee and play 3.

there's no then...you have a total of 5 minutes to find and identify your ball after which is becomes lost by definition - if you lose it again before you make a stroke at it, or proceed under another option, you have the balance of your 5 minutes to find it again (definition of lost and 27/3)

in the same way if you play your first ball and then pick up the provisional only to find you played a wrong ball, or you see that your first ball didn't go out of bounds as you thought it might so you pick up the provisional and walk on to find that it was an illusion because a white stake you hadn't noticed gives a line that you ball has crossed and it's OOB...(27-2b/8)

so, you thought you had found it, you thought your ball wasn't OOB or you thought you had played your original ball - all situations where the provisional ball has to be abandoned; but under the rules if they prove not to be the case the provisional ball miraculously returns or "subsequently becomes the ball in play" as the rules put it.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

it's a good question! basically for a ball not to be lost after a stroke it has to stay found! if you prefer to think of it as 'lost again' after the same stroke then that can be easier - in which case the ball played provisionally upon that ball having been lost after the last stroke made at it becomes the ball in play.

it happens a lot more than might be thought; although there's not always a provisional involved of course.

relevant decisions are 27/3; 27-2b/9 & 27-2b/10

Thanks for that, really good to know!

I'll keep making sure if i find my ball/an FC's ball, i'll throw my cap down next to it to mark it if I have to walk off.

The day I stop being able to see my black cap is the day I should probably not worry about golf!

 

[backwoodsman]

I thought that the instant the first ball was found, the provo is out of play.

Then if the first ball is subsequently lost, by whatever means, the option to then play the provo no longer applies, so it doesn't matter if it is in the pocket or sitting in the fairway and the only option is a walk back to the tee and play 3.

An alternative to Duncan's explanation could be to look at it this way.

A prov' is a ball played when the original may be lost - ie there is a possibility of it being being lost. Unless the original ball actually is lost (see definition), or the ball has been played onwards then a possibility of the original being lost remains. So the prov' remains the prov' . Ok, so discovering the ball after a search will reduce the possibility of it being lost, but not remove it altogether. As we probably all have probably found to our cost at some time. (Makes sense to me anyway)

 

[Slab]

Good rules query

As CheltenhamHacker says this is why we have baseball caps (& also why I never lift someones provisional without direct clear contact with them when I'm beside the ball)

Who'd have thunk with lessons, NGT, aimpoint etc etc etc that something so basic as a cap can save you a couple of shots