Has Marcel Siem missed the point?

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Reading an article on the mental side of the game in this months mag (p102) featuring Marcel Siem.

Something struck me on the following page that I felt I had to share.

The whole point of Taylormade's new SLDR rage is loft, yes?

"Loft up or get left behind" "The reign of loft is here" Are just a couple of slogans used by TM to market their product.

With that in mind, you can imagine my surprise when I see this:

29b08db9-04da-4eac-b0f3-34dce3fc14a5_zps193f45f5.jpg


:mad:

Has Marcel missed the point? Was he using a 6° previously? More TM marketing guff?

Whatta we think folks?
 
There was an advert in last months Mag showing that Garcia had gone from 8.5deg in his previous driver to a SLDR with 9.5deg. OK, it's more loft but hardly an advert for "loft up".
 
Gareth said:
"Loft up or get left behind" "The reign of loft is here" Are just a couple of slogans used by TM to market their product.

With that in mind, you can imagine my surprise when I see this:
Click to expand...

Reality not matching Marketing statements?

No surprise to me! Especially, but not specially, when TM is involved!

Btw. I believe Siem prefers the low penetrating flight, even though he knows it costs him distance (not a lot on the fairways they play on). Quiros is the same! Siem's previous Driver was an RBZ 8*
 
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If you can find me a piece of golf equipment anywhere in the world that works exactly the same for every player that tries it I will turn water into wine for you.

Until that time maybe we should just accept that no golf equipment will work in the exact same way for everybody.
 
When on the Callaway Kinds of Distance thang last week, we were talking to Joe Miller the Long Drive Champ of the universe, who told us that he uses a 3 degree head on his driver, ie same as a putter.

When asked how he gets the ball up, he replied that he gets a lot of extra loft from his spine angle, tees the ball high to hit it on the up.

maybe Marcel does a similar thing?

All I know is that different people's swing produce different launch angles
 
It is marketing guff BUT there are a heap of terrible drivers out there with their macho extra stiff (ooer!) 8 or 9 degree driver who would benefit from more loft. So it's not a message for every golfer but perhaps a revenue opportunity that TM hope to cash in on now black is the new white!
 
Lets face it, TM are trying to sell products. They are fully aware that no manufacturer, at least not in recent memory, has promoted drivers with more loft to gain distance which should attract custom. They don't really care if "loft up" works.
 
Loft up for the amateur in my opinion is a good thing as far too many use too little loft. However for a pro with access to all the figures and fitting options they need, if they find something that is the best for them then rather than fit in with some company promotion campaign they are going to do what suits their game and gives them the best chance of performing well
 
I don't particularly like TM so don't quite understand why I'm writing this, but I was under the impression that the loft up thing was aimed more at amateurs because we have a tendancy to hit the driver less on the up swing than the pros do, meaning that we can benefit more from additional loft? The pros, conversely, have very good swing dynamics already meaning that they don't need the additional loft.

Have I misunderstood?
 
What I can't understand is if the "Loft Up" slogan was marketed mainly towards amateurs, why are TM highlighting so many of their staff players lofting up?

Sergio Garcia and Justin Rose are two that spring to mind straight away.
 
Gareth said:
What I can't understand is if the "Loft Up" slogan was marketed mainly towards amateurs, why are TM highlighting so many of their staff players lofting up?

Sergio Garcia and Justin Rose are two that spring to mind straight away.
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Lofting up works for golfers of all abilities fella. The reason for lofting up is that the SLDR head creates far less spin than anything TM (and most manufacturers) have put out before. This is great for extra distance and limiting the spin on poor shots, but backspin helps get the ball in the air. Without the backspin to get it airborne, it needs to start higher. That's why you'll see the pro's (and people like Mark Crossfield) starting the ball a lot higher than they were, but it doesn't actually go any higher at its peak - Mark's peak height on his i25 was higher than on his SLDR. Generally amateurs have slower swing speeds so they need more loft to get it airborne in the first place, those with fast swing speeds don't need to go up in loft quite as much (although there are several 14&12 degree drivers on tour at the moment).

I was speaking to the tour team about this and when they started fitting the pro's for the clubs, they initially gave them the same lofts, but didn't notice a great improvement in distance. However, the spin rates were drastically down. They then tried to match their spin rates to their old clubs, which meant adding loft - more loft = more spin. They pretty much all gained distance when doing this which is when they realised that to get the optimal numbers from the SLDR you needed to Loft Up. It wasn't (and isn't) a marketing gimmick, as much as information on how to best use the SLDR. The 'Loft Up' messaging came after the production of the clubs. However, of course that messaging is done through ads etc, as putting out company statements with technical info on 'how best to use your SLDR' is likely to get missed by the vast majority!

In terms of Siem, he's pretty much the only one I know of that hasn't gone up in loft. And remember when people are talking about Sergio 'only' going up x degrees. These are players who get fussy over the weight of the paint on the shafts of their clubs ... Going up even 1 degree is a huge step for the majority of tour pro's.
 
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jimbob.someroo said:
Lofting up works for golfers of all abilities fella. The reason for lofting up is that the SLDR head creates far less spin than anything TM (and most manufacturers) have put out before. This is great for extra distance and limiting the spin on poor shots, but backspin helps get the ball in the air. Without the backspin to get it airborne, it needs to start higher. That's why you'll see the pro's (and people like Mark Crossfield) starting the ball a lot higher than they were, but it doesn't actually go any higher at its peak - Mark's peak height on his i25 was higher than on his SLDR. Generally amateurs have slower swing speeds so they need more loft to get it airborne in the first place, those with fast swing speeds don't need to go up in loft quite as much (although there are several 14&12 degree drivers on tour at the moment).

I was speaking to the tour team about this and when they started fitting the pro's for the clubs, they initially gave them the same lofts, but didn't notice a great improvement in distance. However, the spin rates were drastically down. They then tried to match their spin rates to their old clubs, which meant adding loft - more loft = more spin. They pretty much all gained distance when doing this which is when they realised that to get the optimal numbers from the SLDR you needed to Loft Up. It wasn't (and isn't) a marketing gimmick, as much as information on how to best use the SLDR. The 'Loft Up' messaging came after the production of the clubs. However, of course that messaging is done through ads etc, as putting out company statements with technical info on 'how best to use your SLDR' is likely to get missed by the vast majority!

In terms of Siem, he's pretty much the only one I know of that hasn't gone up in loft. And remember when people are talking about Sergio 'only' going up x degrees. These are players who get fussy over the weight of the paint on the shafts of their clubs ... Going up even 1 degree is a huge step for the majority of tour pro's.
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Thats an excellent well supported summary :thup: but I'm still not convinced it makes a huge difference to the average amateur on the courses we play every week.

My distance is generated through a decent shoulder turn and swing speed. If by some sort of miracle manage to connect on a decent swing plane my ball flight will be quite low which is great as it penetrates through the wind but gets a decent roll on the fairway which for 9 months of the year is soft.....Id say Im in the top half in terms of distance with chaps I play with but I'm not convinced a higher loft/ ball flight is the correct way to go for my game....Id say the shaft is more important to the individual not the loft. I'm looking for a new driver...:confused:
TM are a little annoying recently with all this new gear and drivers every week (and now this thing that fits between driver and 3 wood???) it becomes very gimmicky and Im not convinced it makes a huge difference....but hey Im open to be swayed! :)
 
mikee247 said:
Thats an excellent well supported summary :thup: but I'm still not convinced it makes a huge difference to the average amateur on the courses we play every week.
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I'd argue the vast majority of things golf manufacturers claim their clubs/balls/shoes/tees do (and this is by no means just a TM thing) actually make a huge difference to the vast majority of amateurs as they do not have the consistency and purity of strike to realise the potential gains.

But it's fun reading about it. As if they did not then the golf mags and this forum would be very boring;)
 
LOFT is also an acronym for us amateurs with less talent than the top tour professionals.

Maybe it is just TalorMade having a joke at our expense:confused:
 
mikee247 said:
Thats an excellent well supported summary :thup: but I'm still not convinced it makes a huge difference to the average amateur on the courses we play every week.

My distance is generated through a decent shoulder turn and swing speed. If by some sort of miracle manage to connect on a decent swing plane my ball flight will be quite low which is great as it penetrates through the wind but gets a decent roll on the fairway which for 9 months of the year is soft.....Id say Im in the top half in terms of distance with chaps I play with but I'm not convinced a higher loft/ ball flight is the correct way to go for my game....Id say the shaft is more important to the individual not the loft. I'm looking for a new driver...:confused:
TM are a little annoying recently with all this new gear and drivers every week (and now this thing that fits between driver and 3 wood???) it becomes very gimmicky and Im not convinced it makes a huge difference....but hey Im open to be swayed! :)
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Absolutely fair enough with most of your points around your swing etc :) We had a guy in t'other day who genuinely was hitting it 60 yards further as some of you know from the twitter convo - but that will change person on person. All I can say is that for me, and those that I've seen be fitted so far, the results of been more than beyond what I expected when I started working here.

The thing which gets a touch misconstrued about TM releases is that in the last year or so, Callaway have put out at least as many driver models as TM, if not more. If you go from the SLDR release towards the end of last year, TM have had the SLDR, Jetspeed and now the SLDRs which gets released tomorrow. Callaway have had the Big Bertha Alpha, Big Bertha, X Hot 2, X Hot Pro as well as the womens versions of the X Hot range and Big Bertha ranges.

If you were to count different colour models (R1 Black / SLDR White) as different drivers as some do, then Cobra probably put out more than anybody else ... The different colours available in a couple of TM drivers are just that, different colours. The technology is the same, but they just give people more choice :)
 
Hacker Khan said:
I'd argue the vast majority of things golf manufacturers claim their clubs/balls/shoes/tees do (and this is by no means just a TM thing) actually make a huge difference to the vast majority of amateurs as they do not have the consistency and purity of strike to realise the potential gains.

But it's fun reading about it. As if they did not then the golf mags and this forum would be very boring;)
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I agree -and yes it would be a dull game without all the gear as it probably was contrived as being a few years ago however there is an element of this over marketing and developing products (2-3 new drivers a year???)that actually will make no difference to average people from the one they were using previously apart from maybe in their heads .... Yes all brands are guilty but TM especially are way ahead in doing this more recently. I suppose it is all about supply and demand so who can blame them people buy all these gimmicks because they hope its going to make a difference....( Yes Im one on occasion:() thats the way of the modern world and if people are willing to buy a £300 driver 4 months after buying their previous one and think its going to make them hit it a further 50 yards then thats their choice I suppose...... :confused: Can anyone actually think of a club that was revolutionary in its design and performance that transformed the market? .....R7 maybe with the weights...?
 
jimbob.someroo said:
Absolutely fair enough with most of your points around your swing etc :) We had a guy in t'other day who genuinely was hitting it 60 yards further as some of you know from the twitter convo - but that will change person on person. All I can say is that for me, and those that I've seen be fitted so far, the results of been more than beyond what I expected when I started working here.

The thing which gets a touch misconstrued about TM releases is that in the last year or so, Callaway have put out at least as many driver models as TM, if not more. If you go from the SLDR release towards the end of last year, TM have had the SLDR, Jetspeed and now the SLDRs which gets released tomorrow. Callaway have had the Big Bertha Alpha, Big Bertha, X Hot 2, X Hot Pro as well as the womens versions of the X Hot range and Big Bertha ranges.

If you were to count different colour models (R1 Black / SLDR White) as different drivers as some do, then Cobra probably put out more than anybody else ... The different colours available in a couple of TM drivers are just that, different colours. The technology is the same, but they just give people more choice :)
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Oh OK thats a fair point...:thup: Maybe then I should be applauding TM as being an excellent marketed company for their products seem to be in our faces more than the others who clearly manufacture more.
 
Following Jimbob's comments, the only way I can see that I can post an valid opinion on this thread is to go and try the damn thing. I am a firm believer that if you have the right shaft, it doesn't matter what club head you have, you will reach a maximum distance for your swing. I believe, having tried what seemed like a hundred different shafts in my D2, that I am at that point.

Once I have sorted my currently failing swing out I will give it a go and post back the results (Of course, TM will probably have launched a new driver by the time I have sorted my swing ;))
 
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