Handicapping question

[fenwayrich]

I wonder of any forumites with knowledge of the handicapping system could give their thoughts on the following scenario:

A golfer (age early 20's) leaves his club. At the time of his departure his handicap is 8. Over a year (but less than 2 years) later he joins another club, puts his three cards in and is awarded a handicap of 16. The scores on those cards and the nature of any questions asked about previous handicaps are unknown.

Six months later the golfer rejoins his previous club, which is now his away club. The club displays his handicap as 16 in their list. However, members are surprised to see that his handicap has doubled in such a relatively short time. He is a young man and evidence from rounds played before he left suggests that he was competitive off 8.

Does the club have to accept the handicap of 16, or can they make enquiries as to the circumstances in which it was awarded?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

The first problem is the player should have informed his new club initially what his previous HC was and also informed them of his CDH number

As HC sec at my club I would certainly seek advice from the EGU but IMO he should be off 8 with his initial CDH and then 3 cards put in to activate the HC again


Two people at fault - player for not giving his CDH number to the club and not letting know his previous HC and also the HC sec for not fulfilling his responsibilities

 

[Tarkus1212]

Presumably the player now has two CDH numbers?

 

[rosecott]

The first problem is the player should have informed his new club initially what his previous HC was and also informed them of his CDH number

As HC sec at my club I would certainly seek advice from the EGU but IMO he should be off 8 with his initial CDH and then 3 cards put in to activate the HC again


Two people at fault - player for not giving his CDH number to the club and not letting know his previous HC and also the HC sec for not fulfilling his responsibilities

Presumably the player now has two CDH numbers?

I can't lay my hands on a response I got from Golf England but it stated that CDH numbers are not for life, that they do lapse, and that players can be issued with a new number. I cannot remember the length of time which passes before the number lapses but I'm pretty sure it was a small number of years..

 

[Tashyboy]

I know eight shots difference is a lot, but being 18 months ? out of a the game could/ would make you rusty. On top of that is there much difference between the two courses when it comes to how difficult they are.
i say that because when we had our golf day in July, some of the members commented on how difficult at time the course was in reflection to there home hcap.
rustyness + difficult course may answer some of your question.

Having said all that, what made my forehead crease was said player was happy to put in a card showing 16 but presumably not one previously showing 8. Surely he should of known it would of raised suspicion at his original club.

 

[pbrown7582]

About 12 years ago I went through a similar scenario but was 11 and not 8, put my 3 cards in and was given 16 to my surprise as I had declared previous handicap history, I queried this and the h/cap sec said go with what the cards and new handicap worked out at.
It easy to denounce the player but he may have told the new club his history and it has been over looked the OP does state history info unknown.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

I know eight shots difference is a lot, but being 18 months ? out of a the game could/ would make you rusty. On top of that is there much difference between the two courses when it comes to how difficult they are.
i say that because when we had our golf day in July, some of the members commented on how difficult at time the course was in reflection to there home hcap.
rustyness + difficult course may answer some of your question.

Having said all that, what made my forehead crease was said player was happy to put in a card showing 16 but presumably not one previously showing 8. Surely he should of known it would of raised suspicion at his original club.

With a little practice the player should, you would hope, get back to somewhere near his/her previous level.
Plus, doesn't the standard scratch of the two courses make up for the different difficulty levels?

 

[duncan mackie]

Lot of different issues, and the inevitable anecdotes and opinions! Here's one more...

1. The player is required to advise the club of his previous history. If he doesn't the club can't fulfil their responsibilities.
2. The club are required to take into account the previous history as well as the submitted cards in allocating a new handicap (exactly how isn't stated in the manual!!!).
3. The club should (is required to) always monitor any new allocation, especially so when they have allocated one such as 16 against a player previously off 8 as little as 2 years ago - if he plays to 8 in his first comp you would expect them to make a new allocation based on this new evidence!

The new club (the one he's gone back to) is perfectly entitled to ask the previous one whether the player disclosed properly, and any other questions they feel appropriate. If the player hadn't disclosed, and for example had managed a few knockout wins but avoided Q comps or was heading down on the back of a winning streak, both clubs would be entitled to take any action they saw fit (again it's not defined anywhere what that is but I am aware of one individual who was summarily written out of a clubs records and thrown out after a phone call made before another prize giving established they hadn't declared their previous history at all (in his instance it was sufficiently recent that they would have been allocated at the previous level)

As to CDH.....In the perfect world everyone would be allocated a lifetime CDH number and all and every playing record would be retained for ever. Not only are we a long way from that (for mixed reasons) but over recent years the systems aims and processes have been changed. Sadly there is little data integrity with regard to an individual.

However it is getting better!

 

[fenwayrich]

Thank you all for your replies, which are very interesting and helpful.

 

[Region3]

I can't lay my hands on a response I got from Golf England but it stated that CDH numbers are not for life, that they do lapse, and that players can be issued with a new number. I cannot remember the length of time which passes before the number lapses but I'm pretty sure it was a small number of years..

Which is strange, because when I look up my record on the England Golf website they don't call it a CDH number, they call it a Lifetime ID.

 

[Deleted member 17920]

Which is strange, because when I look up my record on the England Golf website they don't call it a CDH number, they call it a Lifetime ID.

Yes its a strange one that.

Once you leave a club they release it and after 12 months it should lapse and if you join a new club after that time they should issue you with a new CDH number.

We always check previous CDH numbers before issuing a new one.

 

[Fyldewhite]

Which is strange, because when I look up my record on the England Golf website they don't call it a CDH number, they call it a Lifetime ID.

It is supposed to be, and there's no reason why it shouldn't be. However, there are all sorts of circumstances......usually around clubs not following process and communicating etc that can result in a player getting a second "Lifetime ID". I'd like to think the EGU monitor this and cleanse the data.

From the evidence described on this thread it looks to me as though either a) the new club have been lax in not requiring previous playing history in the application process, b) they have got this and are ignoring it, or c) the player concerned is not telling them the full story. Either way, I think a conversation between the two clubs handicap secretaries is needed. Given the player has re-joined his original club as an away player then they would be more than justified in pulling him in and establishing what's gone on......I know that's exactly what I'd be doing.

 

[RollinThunder]

This reminds me of what my neighbor did. He played at the same club for years, then moved to a more up-market course, and played there for about 7 years, at which he played-off 18. Then, he had to have some serious surgery on his hip. He fancied a change, so after he'd had a few months off to recover, he joined another club. Because he'd had some time-off playing, and his hip would no doubt affect his ability to swing a club, at his new club, he put in three cards, rather than transferring his handicap, and was assigned 28.

A month or so later, he played in the Senior's Open at his old club, and won with playing-off 28. The fallout was massive, and people were saying that after what he did, he's "dead" to them. He did have some serious surgery, but he should have still transferred his handicap, as all it made it look like, was that he lied to the new club, put in three cards, and was given a handicap 10 strokes more than he used to have.

 

[duncan mackie]

This reminds me of what my neighbor did. He played at the same club for years, then moved to a more up-market course, and played there for about 7 years, at which he played-off 18. Then, he had to have some serious surgery on his hip. He fancied a change, so after he'd had a few months off to recover, he joined another club. Because he'd had some time-off playing, and his hip would no doubt affect his ability to swing a club, at his new club, he put in three cards, rather than transferring his handicap, and was assigned 28.

A month or so later, he played in the Senior's Open at his old club, and won with playing-off 28. The fallout was massive, and people were saying that after what he did, he's "dead" to them. He did have some serious surgery, but he should have still transferred his handicap, as all it made it look like, was that he lied to the new club, put in three cards, and was given a handicap 10 strokes more than he used to have.

It's not up to him to decide what process to use to allocate his handicap in such circumstances.

He either advised the new club of all the relevant info and they made an error of judgement or he didn't, in which case they are rightly a grieved and his 28 isn't a valid CONGU handicap having been fraudulently gained.

 

[Tommo21]

I know eight shots difference is a lot, but being 18 months ? out of a the game could/ would make you rusty. On top of that is there much difference between the two courses when it comes to how difficult they are.
i say that because when we had our golf day in July, some of the members commented on how difficult at time the course was in reflection to there home hcap.
rustyness + difficult course may answer some of your question.

Having said all that, what made my forehead crease was said player was happy to put in a card showing 16 but presumably not one previously showing 8. Surely he should of known it would of raised suspicion at his original club.

Years ago I was never better than a 7/8HC, gave up for around 10 years, went back, put in three cards and got 8 again. IMO a young man in his early 20s after not playing for a while should only take a short while to get back in the groove to a decent level. 8 to 16 dont sound good.