Handicap System: The Biggest Loser...

[Slab]

So as not to detract from the ¾ handicap thread...

Most of us have an opinion on it and many of us have a moan about it from time to time, so let’s look at it inversely

From High/Med/Low handicappers, is there a group that would have the most to lose/biggest negative effect, from golf as a whole, if the entire handicap thing were scrapped?

1. What difference would it make to each of our golfing experiences if the handicap system didn’t exist?
2. What if anything would spawn to replace it?
3. Would it mean an end to comps or a profusion of extra comps?
4. Would High & Low cappers find themselves shunned/ostracised by mates from their regular groups depending on the majority ability?

 

[Imurg]

If there is no handicap system then you play Scratch golf exclusively.
That's ok if you play with players of a similar ability but means that's as far as competitive golf will go.
Competitive golf at club level will die.
I know that there are some who de-cry the handicapping system and say that the best player should win - up to a point I agree.
But if the same best player is winning every time, the weaker players will soon lose interest in competitons

Take our regular 3 ball
Me - 6
Fragger - 20
CVG - 14

On a normal day I'll beat them both on gross score. CVG occasionally beats me gross but Fragger almost can't - I have to have a shocker and he has to play really well to make up those 14 shots.

If we put a fiver on every week I'm sure, after a month or so, Fragger would get a bit tired of turning up and getting beaten - either by me or CVG...EVERY TIME!!

Why would anyone pay money to play against someone knowing they haven't a cat in hell's chance of beating them?
The handicapping system is flawed, it's not perfect.
But it does mean that we can compete against each other regardless of our ability.

So rather than scrap the system, simply divide the membership up into divisions - let's face it most clubs do this - and effectively play the competition between divisions.
A lowest gross prize acknowledges the best player but handicap prizes are awarded too.
Most Club Championships are a gross score comp - effectively scratch - but most also have a handicap prize and that's what the majority are playing for. At our CC there's only about 3 or 4 who realistically have a chance to win the gross prize.

If every game was purely scratch - competitive golf, not just competiton golf, would perish.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Well obviously the people that would suffer would be the high/mid handicappers unless people only play in competitions with people of the same handicap - but that defeats the really good thing about Golf

Regardless of ability - everyone plays alongside each other and handicaps make it a level playing field

Remove that level playing field then it's a scratch comp and only the lower single figure handicaps would benefit.

Thankfully it's an motion that will never ever happen

 

[duncan mackie]

if the entire handicap thing were scrapped?

1.
2. What if anything would spawn to replace it?
3.
4.

a handicap system

just look at works groups, societies and even regular 4 balls - they all develop their own handicapping systems if none exists.

 

[GB72]

If there were no handicap system and everyone played of scratch then I would almost certainly not be a member of a golf club. Part of the benefit is the maintenance of an official handicap and having weekly competitions to enter. I would probably not bother to enter competitions that I could not stand a chance of being competitive in, I may as well throw away £2.00 each week. Furthermore, a large part of a competition is to try and reduce the handicap so, without that, the attraction is diminished.

On that basis, I may as well find a group of similar standard golfers and look for bargain rounds every week and play for a few quid amongst ourselves. It may sound harsh but to my mind if you took away handicaps, you will pretty much kill off golf as a hobby for a majority of people and will kill off a large percentage of golf clubs as well.

 

[FairwayDodger]

If there were no handicap system and everyone played of scratch then I would almost certainly not be a member of a golf club. Part of the benefit is the maintenance of an official handicap and having weekly competitions to enter. I would probably not bother to enter competitions that I could not stand a chance of being competitive in, I may as well throw away £2.00 each week. Furthermore, a large part of a competition is to try and reduce the handicap so, without that, the attraction is diminished.

On that basis, I may as well find a group of similar standard golfers and look for bargain rounds every week and play for a few quid amongst ourselves. It may sound harsh but to my mind if you took away handicaps, you will pretty much kill off golf as a hobby for a majority of people and will kill off a large percentage of golf clubs as well.

Hard to argue with that really.

With no handicaps every comp at my club would be won by 1 of 5 players. Since it's unusual for those 5 to all enter a comp even they wouldn't be getting much competition. Plus even some of those 5 might find it difficult to win when the top top players enter.

We need the handicap system to achieve some sort of viable competition amongst all the members at a club. The best players (low handicappers) generally also have some options for playing against the better players from other clubs, scratch comps etc - best of both worlds.

 

[jimbob.someroo]

Wouldn't it be interesting if comps were split based on the lowest gross score people have shot.

For example; Cat 1 becomes people who have shot 75 or less, Cat 2 people who have shot 83 or less, Cat 3 people who have shot 90 or less. Cat 4 a PB of 91+. No extra handicaps but you compete for prizes within your category only.

This would mean that if you were shooting around 85 regularly (Cat 3) and had a great round and shot 77, you would now be in category 2. Fair enough you might not be the best in that category but it would give you an incentive to aim for.

The best part is that once you had recorded a score in a better category than yours in a comp, you are automatically moved down. This means that a potential bandit (or hcp protector) would only really be able to pick up a prize once or twice, as if they were in Cat 3 (but could really shoot 80 on a good day), they'd only have to do it once in a comp and they'd be moved down. All qualifying competitions would count for this.

An end to banditry and still an ability-based system of sorts.








I think I've just solved golf.

 

[FairwayDodger]

How do you go back up? Or do you always play in Cat 1 'cos you shot a 74 back in '74?

Other than that... I like it, finally made it to cat 1!

 

[jimbob.someroo]

How do you go back up? Or do you always play in Cat 1 'cos you shot a 74 back in '74?

Other than that... I like it, finally made it to cat 1!

If you haven't played within your category for two seasons - ie, in your case, you don't shoot below 75 next year or the year after, you go back into cat 2? Would that work? Maybe a longer period of time?

 

[jimbob.someroo]

In stableford you take the shots from the lower limit of the category. So Cat 1 play off scratch, Cat 2 off 5/6 depending on Par etc.

Might have to invent Cat 0 for people better than scratch.

That way you could still have cross-category comps.

 

[HickoryShaft]

What would happen is that golf as we know and love it would collapse with droves of people leaving the game and giving up because they felt there would be an impossible hurdle to reach the standard required to compete.

Others would never ever enter a competition and just play social golf

Then you would not get people comming through the ranks and the pool of potential pros would shrink to the point where sponsors left and equipment manufacturers turned their intrests to something where they could generate revenue elsewhere

Its a dire scenario that I am going to dub 'world war G' with Brad pitt playing me as I struggle with my game and then go into meltdown and start ambushing low handicappers who are preventing me from winning comps!

 

[HawkeyeMS]

If there were no handicap system and everyone played of scratch then I would almost certainly not be a member of a golf club. Part of the benefit is the maintenance of an official handicap and having weekly competitions to enter. I would probably not bother to enter competitions that I could not stand a chance of being competitive in, I may as well throw away £2.00 each week. Furthermore, a large part of a competition is to try and reduce the handicap so, without that, the attraction is diminished.

On that basis, I may as well find a group of similar standard golfers and look for bargain rounds every week and play for a few quid amongst ourselves. It may sound harsh but to my mind if you took away handicaps, you will pretty much kill off golf as a hobby for a majority of people and will kill off a large percentage of golf clubs as well.

Which is why I say people want to be rewarded for average golf. In every other sport I've ever played, if I wanted to win anything and wasn't good enough, I had to improve. Golf is the only sport I know where you can have no intention of improving, in fact, you could be getting worse, and you can still win.

I get why it works and what would happen to club golf if it wasn't this way but why should you win something for not being the best player on the day?

It would be better if we kept the divisions and h'caps but played off of scratch within those divisions. That way you are playing against people of similar ability and the best player on the day in your division would win something. It would give those who want to improve something to strive for, and those who are happy doing what they were doing without the will to improve the opportunity to win something AND know they were actually the best in their division on that day. There would be no more scenarios where the scratch guy shoots 4 under gross and gets beat by a Nett 61 from a high h'capper.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Thankfully I suspect your view is in the minority

Players don't want rewarding for average golf - they want rewarding for trying the best they personally can and improve themselves every time they go out there

A gross 85 won't be average golf for a 20 handicapper.

Average golf will be judged on each particular person.

The good thing with handicaps is it gives people a chance to win medals and comps and not just for people who have the best gross score.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

Thankfully I suspect your view is in the minority

Players don't want rewarding for average golf - they want rewarding for trying the best they personally can and improve themselves every time they go out there

A gross 85 won't be average golf for a 20 handicapper.

Average golf will be judged on each particular person.

The good thing with handicaps is it gives people a chance to win medals and comps and not just for people who have the best gross score.

I used to try my best at every sport I ever played, if I wasn't good enough I didn't win and I tried harder, sometimes I still didn't win but I didn't expect someone to let me win because I did my best. If your best isn't good enough....

Which is why I think divisions based on handicap, but all playing scratch is better. It means the best player in each division on that day would win, and it is the best player that should win.

4 under gross isn't average to a scratch golfer, but it is a whole lot better than gross 85 yet often gets rewarded with nothing. It's all very well saying the scratch guy should go and play scratch comps but why should they? if the h'cap system was actually fair, the best players would win something, but more often than not, they don't

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Who said anything about "letting people" win

The handicap system is there for a reason - it's what makes golf work , it's what makes golf popular.

The handicap system is fair - if you want a system were only the better golfers win every week then golf dies - simple as that.

You are trying to reward only the single figure to scratch golfers. That's not the point of amateur golf.

I never said the scratch guy should go and play scratch comps - they start every comp with the same chance as everyone else.

I recently shot a 1 under par gross to have a net 62 but didn't win the overall medal - I was beaten by a 17 handicapper. Didn't bother me - I won div 1 and had best gross.

Sometimes in fact a lot of times amateur club golf isn't always about winning.

If you want it to be about the best guy winning every week off scratch then that's called professional golf. No handicaps there.

As I said thankfully I guess you will be very much in a very very small minority

 

[HawkeyeMS]

Who said anything about "letting people" win

The handicap system is there for a reason - it's what makes golf work , it's what makes golf popular.

The handicap system is fair - if you want a system were only the better golfers win every week then golf dies - simple as that.

You are trying to reward only the single figure to scratch golfers. That's not the point of amateur golf.

I never said the scratch guy should go and play scratch comps - they start every comp with the same chance as everyone else.

I recently shot a 1 under par gross to have a net 62 but didn't win the overall medal - I was beaten by a 17 handicapper. Didn't bother me - I won div 1 and had best gross.

Sometimes in fact a lot of times amateur club golf isn't always about winning.

If you want it to be about the best guy winning every week off scratch then that's called professional golf. No handicaps there.

As I said thankfully I guess you will be very much in a very very small minority

I didn't say the scratch guy should win every week, I said the best player in each division, and that's the guy in each division who shot the lowest gross score on the day, should win that division every week. There should never in my opinion be a situation where the guy who plays the best golf on the day gets nothing.

I used scratch as an example, I could have said the guy who shoots the lowest gross score in division 3 should win division 3, he shouldn't be beaten by someone with a worse score, it just doesn't make sense.

If amateur golf wasn't about winning, we wouldn't need a handicap system, everyone would be happy playing off of scratch and seeing the best players win, but they're not. We've already had people say they wouldn't play if they couldn't compete, why would that be if winning wasn't the important factor? Personally, I'd rather have lowest gross and come 5th than win with the 5th worst gross score, but like you say, I am in the minority.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Why should it be the lowest gross score ? Again there is already an area of golf that focuses on gross scores - it's called scratch and professional golf.


Club golf comps are "Handicap Comps" they aren't "Scratch Comps ".

That is what makes Amatuer golf - comps playing for the best net score.

It's club golf - it's playing for a 20-40 quid club pro shop voucher , or a little trophy.

I have only really come across a few who demanded winners were from the gross score not the net - they were mainly very low handicap golfers and also didn't understand the whole premise of Amatuer club golf.

 

[Birchy]

I didn't say the scratch guy should win every week, I said the best player in each division, and that's the guy in each division who shot the lowest gross score on the day, should win that division every week. There should never in my opinion be a situation where the guy who plays the best golf on the day gets nothing.

I used scratch as an example, I could have said the guy who shoots the lowest gross score in division 3 should win division 3, he shouldn't be beaten by someone with a worse score, it just doesn't make sense.

Then people who are in say the bottom end of division 2 are getting punished compared to the guys at the top end of division 3.

I think the handicap system is as fair as can be. Its not perfect and never will be but it gives everybody a chance to compete.

The lowest handicap players still win more overall comps than the higher guys imo but the high guys can stil have their day in the sun. The odds are still slightly in favour of the lower players which is how it should be to ecourage people to improve.

 

[Foxholer]

The handicap system is one of the fabulouis things about Golf!

Sure it's not perfect, but I don't believe there can be a perfect system when anyone can have vastly different scores in any 2 rounds - I've shot 69, 76 (equivalent to 71, 74) 70, 80 (69, 79) and 75, 90 (72, 91!) in 'pairs' of rounds!

As long as folk don't try to 'manage' it - or at least manage it in the same way! - the system works very well.

 

[bladeplayer]

The handicap system is there for a reason - it's what makes golf work , it's what makes golf popular.

The handicap system is fair - if you want a system were only the better golfers win every week then golf dies - simple as that.

Totaly , as ive said before its the golfers that are wrong and not the system , if all golfers played fair & honestly , everyone would have an equal chance of winning ...


EDIT .. as Foxholer said as i was typing :thup: