Handicap Reduction Query

[Big_G]

Had an issue come up at our club recently which has me stumped, not sure which side of the fence I come down on.

2 guys playing against each other in one of our major summer knock outs, a head to head medal comp.

Both players shoot under their respective handicaps, they then being decent guys submit their cards to M&H, and both receive a handicap reduction.

The issue to me is, while I commend what they did, neither informed anyone before the round they were going to do this, and both admit if they had shot over their handicaps they wouldn't have submitted the cards.

Should M&H have accepted the cards?

I have to say they really did show some honesty as it was only a few days before our club championships, but to me this could open up a can of worms, and is open to abuse.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

The cards should not have been accepted to adjust their HC

 

[Green Man]

Surely if they were playing match play against each other they both won't have holed out on every hole.

 

[Big_G]

Surely if they were playing match play against each other they both won't have holed out on every hole.

Medal format, no gimmies

 

[Canary_Yellow]

Why not accept it?

This debate was had not so long ago in a different context.

You say it's open to abuse, but I can't see what kind of abuse personally, so long as the cards are only being taken into account for reductions and not increases of handicap. Surely the only safeguards required should be to prevent players from having a handicap that is too high?

Am I not right in thinking that if I so chose, I could enter a competition and play off a handicap lower than my own?

Technically, Liverpool Phil is right that the cards should not have been accepted. However, to me, common sense has prevailed.

 

[Slab]

Out of curiosity what is the criteria for not accepting these scores against handicap?

(I assume the knock out medal was an official club comp, & was a drawn comp and they didn't just pair up themselves & the comp will have had a time-frame to play the match in)

 

[pbrown7582]

Out of curiosity what is the criteria for not accepting these scores against handicap?

(I assume the knock out medal was an official club comp, & was a drawn comp and they didn't just pair up themselves & the comp will have had a time-frame to play the match in)

Because to submit a supplementary card you have to declare prior to playing and submit card regardless of score. So you can go up or down.

 

[Big_G]

Out of curiosity what is the criteria for not accepting these scores against handicap?

(I assume the knock out medal was an official club comp, & was a drawn comp and they didn't just pair up themselves & the comp will have had a time-frame to play the match in)

All of the above is correct, but as it is a comp with 70+ entrants and a large number of matches to be played, all at different times and conditions, should it be all cards submitted or none?

I can't see how you can choose after the fact

 

[Canary_Yellow]

I think you've missed Slab's point pbrown.

This is a competitive round played to medal rules.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

For the card to qualify for an immediate HC change it must be declared the card will affect HC before the players go out - either by the final being set up as a qualifying comp or both players signing a supplementary book

You can't decide to put a card in after just because it's a good round and the HC committee should not have applied any HC changes unless declared. The cards can be kept as evidence during a HC review

 

[Slab]

Because to submit a supplementary card you have to declare prior to playing and submit card regardless of score. So you can go up or down.

That's what I'm stuck on, why is it a supplementary card and not a (like any other medal) comp card

 

[Slab]

For the card to qualify for an immediate HC change it must be declared the card will affect HC before the players go out - either by the final being set up as a qualifying comp or both players signing a supplementary book

You can't decide to put a card in after just because it's a good round and the HC committee should not have applied any HC changes unless declared. The cards can be kept as evidence during a HC review

I think this is closer to help me understand but wouldn't the default be that as a club comp of course it counts to HC (by default) except when a condition means it cant be a qualifier... whats the condition that's been breached or cant be met, that means it cant count?

 

[Canary_Yellow]

For the card to qualify for an immediate HC change it must be declared the card will affect HC before the players go out - either by the final being set up as a qualifying comp or both players signing a supplementary book

You can't decide to put a card in after just because it's a good round and the HC committee should not have applied any HC changes unless declared. The cards can be kept as evidence during a HC review

I know that all of that is true, but I do wonder what the logic is for not allowing good rounds to be taken into account? I can understand why bad rounds aren't! But what's the downside of someone's handicap being lower than it should be?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I know that all of that is true, but I do wonder what the logic is for not allowing good rounds to be taken into account? I can understand why bad rounds aren't! But what's the downside of someone's handicap being lower than it should be?

People then get false HC - one off rounds shouldn't imo count , it used to happen in the old day , someone has one good round in social and then cut 4 shots and then struggles to play to it over the year because it's not a true reflection of their ability.

 

[cliveb]

I know that all of that is true, but I do wonder what the logic is for not allowing good rounds to be taken into account? I can understand why bad rounds aren't! But what's the downside of someone's handicap being lower than it should be?

If you allow people to submit good cards for a cut but not bad cards for an increase, then they end up with artificially low handicaps. Good for their ego, but bad for future comps.

And the reason this is bad is that it affects CSR - if lots of people have artificially low handicaps, then CSR will go up, which means that players will get cut when they shouldn't, or be in buffer when they should get a 0.1.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

I think this is closer to help me understand but wouldn't the default be that as a club comp of course it counts to HC (by default) except when a condition means it cant be a qualifier... whats the condition that's been breached or cant be met, that means it cant count?

It wasn't a qualifying competition and neither signed the supplementary book before play

 

[jim8flog]

We have started a summer comp which is Stableford match play and have declared that we require all competitors to return the card for handicap purposes. Even if the adjustment is not immediate I would have assumed that the handicap committee must take the score in to account when doing a review in accordance with the directive that came out this January from England Golf.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

We have started a summer comp which is Stableford match play and have declared that we require all competitors to return the card for handicap purposes. Even if the adjustment is not immediate I would have assumed that the handicap committee must take the score in to account when doing a review in accordance with the directive that came out this January from England Golf.

Which is the right procedure

 

[Hooker]

Because to submit a supplementary card you have to declare prior to playing and submit card regardless of score. So you can go up or down.

I thought with a supplementary you can only go down, not up?

 

[HawkeyeMS]

I thought with a supplementary you can only go down, not up?

Oh dear...