Handicap cuts?

[Beezerk]

Apologies if it's been asked before.
Something a mate said last night got me thinking.
Do handicap cuts have to stick to strict guidelines or can clubs make further adjustments on an individual basis given how they perform in club competitions?

 

[snell]

No doubt I'll find out very soon mate lol oo:

 

[pbrown7582]

THERE are set guidelines for cuts the ESR system to account for rapid improvement, and clubs I believe do still have further scope if so desired.

 

[Beezerk]

No doubt I'll find out very soon mate lol oo:

:thup:

 

[Beezerk]

THERE are set guidelines for cuts the ESR system to account for rapid improvement, and clubs I believe do still have further scope if so desired.

Thanks mate, the git won again, two comps on the trot lol.

 

[Garesfield ACE]

Thanks mate, the git won again, two comps on the trot lol.

Couple of weeks ago a 26 hcapper won a non qualifying comp at ours with 46 points.....he was slashed 4 shots.

 

[Birchy]

They should follow the guidelines but theres always one Hcap Sec who still thinks he has an imaginary sword

 

[duncan mackie]

Couple of weeks ago a 26 hcapper won a non qualifying comp at ours with 46 points.....he was slashed 4 shots.

1. he wasn't off 26
2. there are a lot of possible reasons for such action; one logical one being that he was a recent new handicap allocation which has been 'corrected' as per the relevant clause in the manual.

As to the general question - committees can act but require documented evidence to base their actions on. The basis of such action, nature of such evidence etc are all documented by CONGU. H'cap secs cannot unilaterally act.

 

[Martin70]

Seen many a player cut by the recommended amount and then extra due to "general play'. They can enforce what they want to under that clause. I once won a boarded comp off 18 from being the last group on the course, found out immediately and went to change my shoes in the locker room and before I had taken them off was informed I'd been cut by 3. I actually had the new printed handicap presented to me before I'd changed lol

 

[Beezerk]

I think Snell will be getting an extra cut due to twisting old sods in the clubhouse :rant:

 

[duncan mackie]

They can enforce what they want to under that clause.


I once won a boarded comp off 18 from being the last group on the course, found out immediately and went to change my shoes in the locker room and before I had taken them off was informed I'd been cut by 3.

1. no they can't (without recourse)
2. so did I in 1981, and 3 shots too! However this is simply not an option under the current system (for an established player without other appropriate evidence) - it would be reversed on appeal by the local Golf Union.

 

[Martin70]

1. no they can't (without recourse)
2. so did I in 1981, and 3 shots too! However this is simply not an option under the current system (for an established player without other appropriate evidence) - it would be reversed on appeal by the local Golf Union.

Wow fair enough - granted I've come back to the game after a layoff - they used to get away with whatever they wanted within reason. I didn't even know it was possible for an appeal.

 

[Garesfield ACE]

1. he wasn't off 26
2. there are a lot of possible reasons for such action; one logical one being that he was a recent new handicap allocation which has been 'corrected' as per the relevant clause in the manual.

As to the general question - committees can act but require documented evidence to base their actions on. The basis of such action, nature of such evidence etc are all documented by CONGU. H'cap secs cannot unilaterally act.

Our noticeboard showed the cut.26 down to 22.

 

[pbrown7582]

Wow fair enough - granted I've come back to the game after a layoff - they used to get away with whatever they wanted within reason. I didn't even know it was possible for an appeal.

The old system used to allow the h/cap sec to do what he wanted! Beat at pool not buy him a punt park in his spot that was you cut!
Much more regimented now.

 

[Foxholer]

As Duncan posted, there are procedures that need to be followed - and these are documented in the Congu Manual. Clubs can cut on General Play still - Handicap Review used to be 'Clause 19' but is now 'Clause 23', but there is still the occasional reference/threat about 'Rule 19'!

Handicap Secretaries used to have a lot more say/'power' than they do now. This is because of the distinct inconsistencies the old system created and the desire/philosophy that a Andy808's Cornish handicap and Patrick148's one from Nairn will be appropriate if they played a match at The Belfry!

Scotland opted out of the ESA procedure, even though it's only a recommendation - that I haven't heard of anyone actually declining - in order to continue to give the H/Ss more flexibility with reviews. I believe they tend to cut rather quicker than the ESA process would suggest.

It has always been pretty much a 'rule' that a single good score does not justify a cut above that automatic in the system. However, it does highlight possible anomolies/errors. At my last club they pretty much let the system look after itself whereas at a earlier club (back in the days where h/Sec was a bit of a God, the H/Sec was quite 'active' - because he was slightly obsessed about avoiding having the club's name attached high scoring results in corporate days elsewhere. For most folk, the system looks after itself pretty well! Juniors, however, do need special treatment. I knew of one that went from 18 to 6 in the space of 1 season! and there are times when their handicaps are a long way behind their ability!

 

[duncan mackie]

Our noticeboard showed the cut.26 down to 22.

well the results of the Captains Niblick shortly before the competition you are (presumably) referencing showed him at 25.0, he didn't play any club events between, and his scorecard would give 47 points of a handicap of 26

Stroke15 10 4 17 12 2 18 6 8 9 7 5 1 14 3 16 13 11
Par 4 4 5 3 5 4 5 4 4 3 4 4 4 3 4 5 4 3 72
Score 4 5 6 4 8 6 5 5 4 3 6 5 4 4 4 5 5 4 87

 

[duncan mackie]

Scotland opted out of the ESA procedure, even though it's only a recommendation - that I haven't heard of anyone actually declining - in order to continue to give the H/Ss more flexibility with reviews. I believe they tend to cut rather quicker than the ESA process would suggest.

my understanding was that the recommended ESR limits weren't considered exceptional by the SGU, hence they opted out of the (effectively) trial.

every one who has had one at our club has subsequently gone on to further improvement ie it did exactly what it said it was trying to do.

I am aware of one person on here (Copeland) who, lets say, avoided one that was recommended by the system - and then went on to prove the recommendation correct with wins and subsequent handicap reductions!

 

[Foxholer]

my understanding was that the recommended ESR limits weren't considered exceptional by the SGU, hence they opted out of the (effectively) trial.

every one who has had one at our club has subsequently gone on to further improvement ie it did exactly what it said it was trying to do.

That wasn't the story I heard from an Scottish ex-H/S (there's likely a story there too!) that I know. But you could well be right. The fact that he kept a 'tight ship' demonstrates, to me, the need for a more consistent approach. He stated he tended to be about what the ESA trigger/recommendation was or maybe a bit 'tighter' and earlier.

I am aware of one person on here (Copeland) who, lets say, avoided one that was recommended by the system - and then went on to prove the recommendation correct with wins and subsequent handicap reductions!

And yes, that instance did niggle in the back of my mind, but I thought I remembered it has having been resolved with an ESA. Must have been the 'proof' that made me think that the ESA had been agreed to, rather than further 'earned'!

 

[Jay1]

As ESR has come up in this thread, I'll ask this here, instead of starting another one.

When does the "within a year" or "playing season" (whatever the guideline says) run from? Reason I ask is that of the 3 of us that normally play together 2 of us have had ESR's based on the 2 rounds at -4 or better. The third one has recently had a -4, which is his second in 12 months. He queried it with the club office as he was expecting (and wanting) an ESR, but they simply said the system hadn't applied one so the normal cut applied.

We all thought it seemed weird as were under the impression that it was a rolling 12 month period, and he had about 9 months between his applicable rounds.

 

[Foxholer]

As ESR has come up in this thread, I'll ask this here, instead of starting another one.

When does the "within a year" or "playing season" (whatever the guideline says) run from? Reason I ask is that of the 3 of us that normally play together 2 of us have had ESR's based on the 2 rounds at -4 or better. The third one has recently had a -4, which is his second in 12 months. He queried it with the club office as he was expecting (and wanting) an ESR, but they simply said the system hadn't applied one so the normal cut applied.

We all thought it seemed weird as were under the impression that it was a rolling 12 month period, and he had about 9 months between his applicable rounds.

Calendar Year.

So anything in 2013 is 'flushed' and it starts anew from 01.01.2014.