Greensomes Provisional ball?

[delc]

In greensomes, both players tee off at each hole, select the best shot, and then play alternate shots from there. The other day we were playing in a greensomes Stableford competition. At one hole, one of our fellow competitors hit a long drive into trouble, in an area where we might not have found his ball, whilst his partner then topped his drive only about 10 yards forward. We suggested to save time that they continued with this ball provisionally until we reached the area where the first ball lay, which they did. The first ball was found and played. I have since had second thoughts about the legality of this! Any views? Neither of our teams troubled the scorers btw.

 

[chrisd]

I think that you were quite right to have doubts.

You can't turn a ball in play into a provisional ball and play it according to the rules governing provisional balls just for expediency sake. As soon as the ball was played it was, in my opinion, the chosen ball and the ball in play, and the longer drive ball should have been picked up.

Go on, someone tell me I'm wrong!

 

[rulefan]

I think that you were quite right to have doubts.

You can't turn a ball in play into a provisional ball and play it according to the rules governing provisional balls just for expediency sake. As soon as the ball was played it was, in my opinion, the chosen ball and the ball in play, and the longer drive ball should have been picked up.

Go on, someone tell me I'm wrong!

You aren't.
If the ball hasn't been declared to be a provisional before it has been played, it isn't and cannot become a provisional.

Incidentally, it is said that one of the reasons that greensomes are not a recognised format, is because of the unresolved problem of who plays the provisional and how to treat two 'lost' balls from the tee.

 

[Old Skier]

Incidentally, it is said that one of the reasons that greensomes are not a recognised format, is because of the unresolved problem of who plays the provisional and how to treat two 'lost' balls from the tee.

And I wish CONGU would remove all reference to it from the book. The amount of arguments over the recommended way to work out the handicap causes more arguments in our club than anything.

 

[rulefan]

And I wish CONGU would remove all reference to it from the book. The amount of arguments over the recommended way to work out the handicap causes more arguments in our club than anything.

If CONGU hadn't made a recommendation (only), would that reduce the arguments?

 

[Old Skier]

In all honesty yes.

I have all kinds of mathematical nutters tell me it's not fair or 1/2s not fair. I never get it right it seems :mmm:

 

[Old Skier]

Double tap

 

[Foxholer]

Double tap

Another way to reduce arguments!

Btw. If you go by Congu's recommendation, you are at least being consistent with all other forms.

 

[delc]

You aren't.
If the ball hasn't been declared to be a provisional before it has been played, it isn't and cannot become a provisional.

Incidentally, it is said that one of the reasons that greensomes are not a recognised format, is because of the unresolved problem of who plays the provisional and how to treat two 'lost' balls from the tee.

Surely if only one ball is found in play, then you continue with that one. If both balls are 'lost' or believed to be lost, then both players play provisional balls, or 3 off the tee, chose the best shot, and proceed from there.

 

[Old Skier]

Another way to reduce arguments!

Btw. If you go by Congu's recommendation, you are at least being consistent with all other forms.

I just wish they would word it the same ways as they do for other formats and not use the work recommendation which leaves it open IMHO

 

[duncan mackie]

Surely if only one ball is found in play, then you continue with that one. If both balls are 'lost' or believed to be lost, then both players play provisional balls, or 3 off the tee, chose the best shot, and proceed from there.

Nope- logically once one player has played a ball provisionally on his partners ball being lost or OOB then if his partner plays another it is provisional on the first provisional, not his partners original ball. Very simple.
Put another way, you have both teed off and now have to select whose playing next - whether they are playing from the fairway, dropping from an unplayable lie or returning to the tee doesn't matter. A provisional becomes he ball in play if he original is lost or OOB so you can't play 2 provisional balls except when playing a provisional on a provisional.
However, such an obvious stage forward situation does prevent years of argument (as Rulefan ) references.

 

[delc]

Nope- logically once one player has played a ball provisionally on his partners ball being lost or OOB then if his partner plays another it is provisional on the first provisional, not his partners original ball. Very simple.
Put another way, you have both teed off and now have to select whose playing next - whether they are playing from the fairway, dropping from an unplayable lie or returning to the tee doesn't matter. A provisional becomes he ball in play if he original is lost or OOB so you can't play 2 provisional balls except when playing a provisional on a provisional.
However, such an obvious stage forward situation does prevent years of argument (as Rulefan ) references.

So if both tee shots are believed to be lost or OOB, who plays the provisional ball?

 

[BTatHome]

So if both tee shots are believed to be lost or OOB, who plays the provisional ball?

That was already answered in the post you quoted.

 

[rulefan]

I just wish they would word it the same ways as they do for other formats and not use the work recommendation which leaves it open IMHO

I'm not sure what you mean but CONGU says:

Foursomes
Stroke Play - 1/2 aggregate handicap of partners
Match Play - 1/2 difference between aggregate handicaps of each side

Greensomes
Stroke Play - Lower handicap x 0.6 plus higher handicap x 0.4
Match Play – Full Difference between Greensomes Handicaps

The theory is to allow for the better player's drive always being used

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Never ever witnessed two people in the same Greensomes team both go OOB - that's poor course/game management

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I'm not sure what you mean but CONGU says:

Foursomes
Stroke Play - 1/2 aggregate handicap of partners
Match Play - 1/2 difference between aggregate handicaps of each side

Greensomes
Stroke Play - Lower handicap x 0.6 plus higher handicap x 0.4
Match Play – Full Difference between Greensomes Handicaps

The theory is to allow for the better player's drive always being used

Greensomes for us is simple - half combined

 

[Old Skier]

I'm not sure what you mean but CONGU says:

Foursomes
Stroke Play - 1/2 aggregate handicap of partners
Match Play - 1/2 difference between aggregate handicaps of each side

Greensomes
Stroke Play - Lower handicap x 0.6 plus higher handicap x 0.4
Match Play – Full Difference between Greensomes Handicaps

The theory is to allow for the better player's drive always being used

CONGU only recommends for Greensomes.

 

[rulefan]

So if both tee shots are believed to be lost or OOB, who plays the provisional ball?

That is the question that has never yet been answered authoritatively. See post #3.
Over the years there have been many discussions (arguments) about how this should be handled. Some common ideas are below. There are probably others.

The only definitive conclusion I have seen is that the Committee should specify the process in the Conditions of Competition. Most don't and are then surprised when the winners are accused of using the 'wrong' process.


Both players play another ball from the tee announcing they are provisionals

Case 1)
A plays a provisional (for B's ball?) and B plays a provisional (for A's ball?).
May they then choose the best 'provisional' playing 3 off the tee

Case 2)
A plays a provisional and B plays a second 'provisional', is B's ball a provisional for the original ball or for A's provisional playing 5 off the tee.

Case 3) As Case 2) but if A's provisional may not be lost or OOB, is B's second ball now the ball in play? How many counting stroke have they?

 

[Old Skier]

Greensomes for us is simple - half combined

Which is against CONGU recommendations.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Which is against CONGU recommendations.

It's no issues - already confirmed with them that it's fine as they "recommend" what HC allocation you use and its not a strict rule that must be adhered to.

Greensomes are not official qualifying comps for HC purposes so it makes not one single difference what HC allocation people use - had that confirmed with them as well.