From Slices to Pulls

[Khamelion]

When I've had the chance I've been working hard to cure my slice and I'm about 97% there, unfortunately my bad shot is now a pull.

To paint the picture, I had a bad over the top out to in swing path and a mahoosive slice, but by working on getting weight over onto the left, keeping left arm close to my body on the down swing and trying to drop and tuck (or at least that is the feeling) my right arm into my waist on the down swing I have stopped slicing.

My problem is that I still spin my shoulders, the result being the aforementioned pull or a hook, in that the ball starts straight and then bends left.

I'm thinking that I need to try and keep my left shoulder pointing towards or slightly right of my target all the way through impact and it's easy to say just keep your shoulder there, but when you've grooved in the swing path I have that, is, a lot easier said than done.

So are there any drills that will help me keep me stop spinning my shoulders out, or is it just a case of perseverance, repetition until I groove in not spinning out?

Cheers
Dave

 

[the_coach]

the only real difference between a slice & a pull is the club face angle at impact. for either shots your still swinging on an out to in path to whatever degree & also swinging left in direction through impact, with a pull the face angle is square to this path, with a slice the face is open to this path.

in order you can release the club naturally through the ball no manipulation with hands or forearms you have to keep the upper body, so torso chest shoulders rotating leftwards over the hips that are already turned & cleared left.

shoulders are around square through impact to slightly open but this is only a very small moment in time within a continuos motion as this upper body rotation should not stop as such through impact.

all this is often accompanied by a downswing that starts down from the top, got to start transition from the ground up, left foot, left knee, thigh, hip, gets the club working downwards before it works out to the ball, right shoulder turns downwards, right elbow almost brushing the right hip. but accompanying this you have to keep your head atop the back of the ball as you continue to rotate the upper body as the arms & club swing past your center.

 

[the_coach]

can't really give you a drill, you could be an out to in swinger because you break you hands out away from you body first off in the take away this then sends the club shaft back a ways flat more horizontal to the ground so pointing the clubhead back past the heel line while the butt end of the club points directly out over the ball target line.

from here because the golfer knows somehow the club has to get up to the top there's a lifting motion, this can also happen a number of ways, a stand up out of posture with lift up of the arms.
or a lift up of the arms with the right elbow lifting up flying outwards to point a good ways behind the heel line instead of the right elbow staying pointing downwards to the ground.
oft times either ways it also often ends up with the club pointing across the ball/target line at the top.

from here there's only usually one direction back to the ball the club hands arms & right shoulder more move out, can still feel as you swing down you swinging you left arm down the chest right arm across your middle, but it's still coming out to in swinging a ways left.

or from the get-go of the takeaway there's not much body rotation as the hands arms & club are more lifted straight outwards away from the body & upwards to the top which is a very vertical position shaft more up over the head, from here even if the right shoulder feels it's moving downwards has it hasn't rotated any at all, it's still moving down from the outside so this vertical armswing still swinging down out to in & in swing direction swinging left through impact.

also possible to take it back flat because the hand broke out away from the body as in the first example here but stay flat with not much body rotation so the swing length is very short club never really gets anywhere near the top, from here it come back around flat with the hips & shoulders spinning leftwards, so although it's a flat swing it's still swinging out to in swinging left through impact.

with any of these motions with these paths it's possible depending where the face angle is looking when it travels through, it somewhere around square to path it will result in a pull, somewhere around open you'll get whatever degree of left to right flight depending on how open, but you can also return the club face closes so goes left & curves left.

for a drill other than a general one to promote a more neutral swing path so the club goes back then inside & up, then it moves downwards & outwards to square through impact then back inside & upwards & around at the top. best thing for this is making a work station with either alignment sticks or clubs one of the right toe line parallel to the ball/target line & one for the ball/target line & monitoring carefully with some slow-mo drills that the club shaft you using echoes these lines on the ground.

thats a good way in itself but takes a lot of discipline to make sure your doing it right.

if the way your moving the club in the takeaway/backswing is known it's then possible to make up some physical 'gates' with obstacles you have to avoid, but obviously these would need to be in slightly differing positions depending on whether the initial take back move was too much inside or too much outside.

drill here is one to help find a good neutral swing path.

[video=youtube_share;xvMiZQo70-E]http://youtu.be/xvMiZQo70-E[/video]

 

[bobmac]

Imagine the ball is a clockface.
Try and hit the ball about 4.30.
In other words, try and hit the bottom right of the ball. (Bottom left for lefties)
(

 

[Foxholer]

Imagine the ball is a clockface.
Try and hit the ball about 4.30.
In other words, try and hit the bottom right of the ball. (Bottom left for lefties)
(

Better explain where 12:00 (or 6:00) is Bob! Presumably, 6 closest, 12 furthest away.

My initial thought for some reason (wristwatch perhaps?) was that the 12/6 line was on the target line! That would encourage a serious Out-to-In swing!!

 

[Khamelion]

When I was having lessons at the beginning of the year, the guy who was teaching me, said tat my takeaway and back swing to the top was 10 out of 10, he couldn't fault it.

But..

The problem was that I wanted to start my swing with my shoulders, casting the club and subsequently had the massive out to in path, my release was happening after I had hit the ball, with my right hand being under, hence open club face.

He got me to feel like my left arm was more connected to my body and feel the left bicep slide down the left side of my chest on the down swing.

He got me to tuck my right arm in at the waist, as I had a tendency to allow my arms to come away from my body, which didn't help the out to in path.

He got me to get my weight transferred more onto my left side.

All of which helped.

But as I wrote above, the feeling I have is that even though I move my right shoulder under, keep my arms in close, I'm still twisting my shoulders way to early and that still gives me the out to in path, albeit now with a square face or sometimes closed face, hence the pulls and occasional hook.

I'm pretty sure it's just a mental thing, and once I crack telling my brain to hold the shoulders, stop them turning to early I'll be more consistent in hitting straighter shots. I can do it as occasionally it all comes together and I hit straight shot, but that is more of a once in a blue moon shot.

 

[Khamelion]

Better explain where 12:00 (or 6:00) is Bob! Presumably, 6 closest, 12 furthest away.

My initial thought for some reason (wristwatch perhaps?) was that the 12/6 line was on the target line! That would encourage a serious Out-to-In swing!!

I got what Bob meant, 6 being my feet and 9 to 3 being the target line.

 

[Foxholer]

I got what Bob meant, 6 being my feet and 9 to 3 being the target line.

Yep. That'll do it! Scarily opposite result the other way!

 

[the_coach]

When I was having lessons at the beginning of the year, the guy who was teaching me, said tat my takeaway and back swing to the top was 10 out of 10, he couldn't fault it.

But..

The problem was that I wanted to start my swing with my shoulders, casting the club and subsequently had the massive out to in path, my release was happening after I had hit the ball, with my right hand being under, hence open club face.

He got me to feel like my left arm was more connected to my body and feel the left bicep slide down the left side of my chest on the down swing.

He got me to tuck my right arm in at the waist, as I had a tendency to allow my arms to come away from my body, which didn't help the out to in path.

He got me to get my weight transferred more onto my left side.

All of which helped.

But as I wrote above, the feeling I have is that even though I move my right shoulder under, keep my arms in close, I'm still twisting my shoulders way to early and that still gives me the out to in path, albeit now with a square face or sometimes closed face, hence the pulls and occasional hook.

I'm pretty sure it's just a mental thing, and once I crack telling my brain to hold the shoulders, stop them turning to early I'll be more consistent in hitting straighter shots. I can do it as occasionally it all comes together and I hit straight shot, but that is more of a once in a blue moon shot.

'bobmac's advice re the clockface good advice, may well help straight off & just completely sort it for sure.

while looking at a ball another ways of thinking about that is imagine the ball has been divided into quarters swing down to strike the inside back quarter nearest you on a path that would exit the clubhead through the space the outside front quarter of the ball occupied.

if this alone not doing it for you for some reason which could then likely be is in the sequence of the swing motion itself being a little ways out of whack. given that you get up to the top in good shape.

Pro's advice about weight left, so the lower left side starting transition obviously a good one as it should.

couple of things at transition that may help.
make sure you don't jump on the left side so weight gets straighways on the outside of the left foot -often this moves your upper body a little ways laterally left so head moves at or past the front side of the ball.

feel more the transition trigger is weight going gently downwards into the ground through the left foot & while doing that feel your back stays looking at target for a hair. (translation - momentarily)

just as a little feel drill, no ball, you can do it inside if you got the space. it's not a swing just some slow-mo positions.

get to the top in that good position you know you can do.

then in slow-mo just feel the weight down into ground through the left foot but making sure that the back stays looking at target arms club stay at the top, it's just to feel a slight separation of that weight move into left foot while nothing else does move at all.
just simply that swing is still at the top you're just feeling putting that pressure into left foot while the back stays to target.

just stop there & without moving posture just tilt your head a tad to look to your right where the arms are atop in relation to the hips, right elbow should be more over top of the back of the turned right hip (not over the front of it) so arms club unit very much directly opposite your chest.
reason to look at this, you should then be able to see from this top position you have all this space you made there that the arms hands club can drop/move downwards into when the right shoulder starts to turn down.

should give you a diffeent perspective of where the arms/club moves down into from the top -you can see this space- so easier to understand why from the top they don't move outwards.

also you'll see the angle of the chest here that when this unit starts to move down the left arm will fall/move down that chest is still angled. left arm not falling down a squarer chest position.

so from this top just slowly feel the left arm come down the chest as the right hand/right arm stays holding the angle right shoulder turning down.
all the while the weight is moving more in to left foot left leg, left hip turning, you'll see doing this the right elbow comes close right in front of the right hip, club shaft pretty horizontal to ground here (delivery position)

then you just imagine from here while keeping head atop back of ball you would keep rotating the upper body which brings the arms hands club down into the ball into 'bobmac's 4.30/5.00pm position (that inside back quarter) then you'd just swing through on that outside front quarter line to balanced finish.

 

[the_coach]

[video=youtube_share;2p0JbDgJc6s]http://youtu.be/2p0JbDgJc6s[/video]

 

[Khamelion]

Went to the range this evening, to put into practice what the first video showed. It took around 20 balls before it started to click, then I had 10 or 15 balls, where I was lashing at the ball, so I took a moment told myself to slow down. It took a few balls for that last thought to sink in, but then I was hitting ball after ball, solid strikes, some were a little left of target, some were very slight fades, but very pleasingly the rest were down my target line, but what made me even happier was that my target line was the centre of the two large goal posts at the far end of the range setup to show fairway width and all my shots were within the posts.

I'm not saying I've cracked it, but following the first video, your [the coach] instructions has made more sense in the few minutes it took to read and watch the video, than half a dozen lessons did at the beginning of the year.

thank you very much, very much appreciated.

 

[the_coach]

couple things I haven't mentioned as assume they're okay. but always worth a check, you probably have.

make sure that unnoticed the ball position hasn't crept too far forwards if it gets forwards you will naturally be swinging further to the left through impact.
make sure your left hand is on top of the handle not rotated a little ways towards the target.

 

[Khamelion]

make sure that unnoticed the ball position hasn't crept too far forwards if it gets forwards you will naturally be swinging further to the left through impact.

I used to have the ball pretty much central in my stance for all clubs, bar the driver, but I tend to move it around a little depending on the club. With my irons it ranges from about half a ball left of centre for my 4 iron going back through the clubs to about a ball and a half to the right for my wedges.

make sure your left hand is on top of the handle not rotated a little ways towards the target.

My grip is neutral to a little strong, my left hand is not wrapped around so much that you can see all the knuckles. I place the grip of the club across the crease in my left hand where the fingers meet the palm, then close my hand around the grip with the thumb on top, pinky of right hand interlocks with fore finger and both thumbs are lined up on top.

 

[the_coach]

I used to have the ball pretty much central in my stance for all clubs, bar the driver, but I tend to move it around a little depending on the club. With my irons it ranges from about half a ball left of centre for my 4 iron going back through the clubs to about a ball and a half to the right for my wedges.

My grip is neutral to a little strong, my left hand is not wrapped around so much that you can see all the knuckles. I place the grip of the club across the crease in my left hand where the fingers meet the palm, then close my hand around the grip with the thumb on top, pinky of right hand interlocks with fore finger and both thumbs are lined up on top.

Okay good you getting some good contacts out there, glad it's helped some.
If your Pro is happy with ball, & grip then all good.

First thing to check if anytime stuff gets a bit ropey with contact, shot direction. Is just run through all those statics at set up first off.

Can be as little as a slight change in posture or slight change in particularly shoulder alignment, as shoulders can more dictate the swing path, or whether you crept further away or nearer to the ball at address,
Sometimes any of these changes can be influenced by just a small change in the ball position, half a ball of so.

But work to the motion & stuff mentioned in the other posts & should help you some.

Anytime you are at the practice ground, range, working on stuff always best to limit the swing to 70% or less even gives you time to better be aware of what you are trying to feel. Impossible to do at your normal full speed, you just go back to the default position of doing what you'd normally do.

Just like any time it's all going south on the course, just focus on aiming correctly & a smooth tempo, when thing go south out there usually it's the tempo & rhythm thats speeded up some so the sequence is out of whack.
Even on seemingly a bad day it's amazing if you focus on tempo & balance you can still knock it round in some good numbers & rescue a score.

 

[the_coach]

something that may help you, just a slow-mo drill I do pretty often. first thing that's happening from the top is the weight is going downwards into the ground through the left foot, hope you can just see that as at first glance at the top it looks like nothing else much is happening but its feeling that downwards ground pressure as the transition trigger.

then it's the slow-mo of arms hands club unit coming down the in front of the chest. yes it's a little exaggerated here as the chest is staying still which obviously doesn't happen in the swing motion. but in these drill positions it's just to help isolate the movement. feeling I'm looking to produce in the 'real' continuos swing motion.

to help produce the motion your looking to achieve in the reduced speed swing through the ball, as you can see here at the end.

it's a good way of feeling everything come down into the delivery position before the rotation & hip clearing takes the clubhead out to the ball & through impact, but again only at around 70% effort.

[video=youtube_share;xX8SZMF2-Ds]http://youtu.be/xX8SZMF2-Ds[/video]

 

[Beezerk]

I have exactly the same affliction as you Dave, it's annoying because you can't really be have confidence in where the ball is going to end up.
During a lesson I had a while ago the pro said to feel like your arms are almost too far out in front of you as I have a tendency to take the club back on the inside. It's weird as it felt unnatural but watching vids back it was a much better plane. Then almost loop the club back in and down from the inside if you will on the downswing. Worked well for a while and Alan can testify it cured my slice for a while but as usual bad habits get back in and I struggle to get the same feeling now.