Free drop or not

[davemc1]

Ball lands in a storm drain (12" wide) which runs near enough the full length of the hole. Right hand side.

There is no oob and no markers stating a hazard. Also no help on the card to define what to do.

Free drop out? Or take it as an unplayable and therefore a 1 shot penalty, or is it something else?

In the end, we went the unplayable lie route. But still all unsure.

thanks in advance

 

[Spuddy]

It's a water hazard as per the definitions and should be marked as such.

 

[pbrown7582]

Poor it's not marked or a local rule isn't on card to define.

 

[Marc Cools]

It is an obstruction; see the definition of obstruction. No local rule declared it otherwise. See rule 24-2a for when it obstruct. See rule 24-2bi for the free drop you get. See the definition of nearest point of release for where to drop.

 

[Spuddy]

It is an obstruction; see the definition of obstruction. No local rule declared it otherwise. See rule 24-2a for when it obstruct. See rule 24-2bi for the free drop you get. See the definition of nearest point of release for where to drop.

I think youre wrong. While the man made drain may be an immovable obstruction as per the definitions, it's also a water hazard,

A “water hazard’’ is any sea, lake, pond, river, ditch, surface drainage ditch or other open water course (whether or not containing water) and anything of a similar nature on the course. All ground and water within the margin of a water hazard are part of the water hazard.

The first line of rule 24-2b says,

Except when the ball is in a water hazard or a lateral water hazard, a player may take relief from interference by an immovable object as follows...

 

[Marc Cools]

If it is water and not marked as water it is casual water. It must be marked by stakes or lines or declared as such bij a local rule. Non of this is the case so it isn't a water hazard.

 

[Spuddy]

Have a read of decision 26/3

Q.An unmarked ditch on the left of a hole is in bounds, but the left-hand margin is out of bounds. Accordingly, it is impossible to drop behind the water hazard under Rule 26-1b. A player's ball comes to rest in the ditch. Is the player restricted to playing the ball as it lies or proceeding under Rule 26-1a?

A.It is the responsibility of the Committee to define accurately the margins of water hazards and lateral water hazards – see Rule 33-2a. However, if the Committee has not done so, the ditch is, by definition, a lateral water hazard and the player should be permitted to proceed under Rule 26-1c(i).​

Just because the drain isnt marked, it doesnt stop it from being a hazard. What would happen if for instance, the greenkeeper had removed stakes marking a stream in order to cut the grass but had forgotten to replace them?

If it is water and not marked as water it is casual water. It must be marked by stakes or lines or declared as such bij a local rule. Non of this is the case so it isn't a water hazard.

 

[Marc Cools]

Good point but ...
In the decision it is a ditch witch should be marked as a water hazard. I guess the decision was made in equity with rule 1.4 in mind. "It's clear that it is a water hazard. There is no doubt about it. They must forgot to mark it."
In your situation it is a storm drain. Most people don't see that as a water hazard. So it is not clear that it is a water hazard. The metal stuff or whatever they used to make it a storm drain, with pipes to remove the water from the surrounding, makes it a man made construction 'to avoid beeing it a ditch'. So it must be marked or declared as a water hazard or it won't be a hazard!
I assume that there was no water in it and so it did his job. But even when it didn't do his job then it still wouldn't be a water hazard. It would be casual water which also gives you a free drop but under rule 25.

An important part of a referee's job is to make those margin calls. So they have a situation and make a judgment about it according to the rules/decisions and according to their experience and with rule 1.4 in mind. Then they write to R&A and ask if they made a good ruling. Then the R&A gives an answer. If it is really doubtful they clear it up with a decision so that all the other referee (and the players) make the same ruling. In the decision you could argue, when is it a ditch and when not? That is a judgement call, but the decision makes it now clear that when it is clear that the committee should have marked it and forget it, you must rule that it is a mistake which must be corrected. EDIT : Without the decision, you could rule it but not must rule it.

 

[Marc Cools]

I didn't look at the decisions before you did. I must do that more often. So I learned something today.

A ball is in a water hazard when it is (1) marked with stakes or (2) lines, when it is (3) declared so by the committee (local rule/hard card/...) or when there is (4) no doubt about it that it is a water hazard.

 

[rulefan]

A “water hazard’’ is any sea, lake, pond, river, ditch, surface drainage ditch or other open water course (whether or not containing water) and anything of a similar nature on the course.

An “obstruction’’ is anything artificial, including the artificial surfaces and sides of roads and paths and manufactured ice,

It is quite common for things to satisfy two definitions at the same time. eg a bench can be an obstruction and an outside agency.

 

[Marc Cools]

@rulefan

I think this is the problem. If you read the definitions you can go either way. You can stretch it to fit your goal but still you have to make a ruling what it most likely is for the situation. Especially when it makes a difference in score.
The first sentence of this post is "... storm drain (12" wide) which runs near enough the full length of the hole". For me it is clear that it is an obstruction and not a ditch, which would be a water hazard. 'Full length' gives me the impression that there is no ditch but it's all storm drain. The situation would be different if there was a little storm drain and a ditch witch guided the water to the storm drain.

It's not that simple because when is a 'dent' in the course a ditch? And what about the slope going to the storm drain. How much must it bent to be a ditch with a storm drain in it? When becomes a slope a heavy slope becomes a ditch? From which point is it ditch or through the green? How much of the surrounding of the storm drain can you assume to be part of the storm drain?

So I think that it must be clear without reasonable doubt that it is a water hazard and that the presence of of a storm drain gives you less margin for ruling it a water hazard.

On the Challenge Tour in Belgium I once witnessed a situation where a player asked if it was abnormal ground condition? The ground condition there was as bad as a about one meter further. But over there was a white line marking it which gives players there free relieve. The referee ruled that because the committee did not marked it as abnormal ground condition, it isn't. He didn't get a free relieve. This, other situations and talks with an European Tour referee learned me that you have to be strict with the rules. Apparently, the committee doesn't make mistakes.

Don't get me wrong. I don't want to be right. I just want to know exactly where the line is.

 

[rulefan]

A water hazard doesn't have to be a ditch. It is any open water course. That therefore excludes pipes or closed conduits.
An open channel, whether dug or eroded in the earth or an artificial channel made from timber, steel or concrete, which carries water, is a water hazard. If it is artificial, it is also an obstruction.

I have officiated at and/or been responsible for marking courses for national and international competitions and rated too many courses to believe I have been wrong all these years.

The only arguable situation is where a tarmac (say) surfaced road incorporates surface channels to conduct water to side drains. In those cases, the whole road is designated to be an obstruction and the channels not deemed water hazards.

If I can't convince you that anything designed to carry water, that is open to the skies, is a water hazard I suggest you ask the R&A.

 

[Spuddy]

Whats the purpose of a storm drain if not for carrying water? That means it's an 'open water course' which may, or may not, contain water. Granted, there may be grey areas in some circumstances as to what may constitute a water course but I dont see this as one.

 

[Marc Cools]

@rulefan

So you think it is a water hazard?

Now I am confused.

On my home course we have a lot of storm drains on the fairway. Everybody off the club takes free relief from it. And I think that is right. The storm drains are small and has a little slope to it. It was never an issue how to handle.
So I wonder, what must be different to make it a water hazard? I really want to know because maybe I'm all those years wrong too. And, again, I don't have to be right, I want to understand the rules as best possible.

 

[Foxholer]

@rulefan

So you think it is a water hazard?

Now I am confused.

On my home course we have a lot of storm drains on the fairway. Everybody off the club takes free relief from it. And I think that is right. The storm drains are small and has a little slope to it. It was never an issue how to handle.
So I wonder, what must be different to make it a water hazard? I really want to know because maybe I'm all those years wrong too. And, again, I don't have to be right, I want to understand the rules as best possible.

It could be being played as on of 'those' Local Rules - that would not be sanctioned by the authorities, yet must be obeyed until rescinded! Can you check your scorecard/noticeboard to see whether that's the reason. Otherwise, try querying you Club as to why the drains are not classified as Water Hazards. They certainly seem like LWHs to me! A pic of an example or 2 would probably help clarify too.

 

[rulefan]

@rulefan

So you think it is a water hazard?

Now I am confused.

On my home course we have a lot of storm drains on the fairway. Everybody off the club takes free relief from it. And I think that is right. The storm drains are small and has a little slope to it. It was never an issue how to handle.
So I wonder, what must be different to make it a water hazard? I really want to know because maybe I'm all those years wrong too. And, again, I don't have to be right, I want to understand the rules as best possible.

I need more information about exactly what these 'features' consist of and look like.
Are they simply linear depressions in the ground, stone filled trenches (French Drains) or artificial (eg moulded/cast concrete) channels set into the ground. As foxholer says, a photo would be useful.

Of course, if they are obstructions, free relief is available anyway, unless they are also water hazards and the ball is within or touching the margin of the water hazard.

 

[SammmeBee]

Until you see what the OP is actually talking about - how can you make a decision?

 

[rulefan]

Until you see what the OP is actually talking about - how can you make a decision?

The problem has changed. The answer to original post by davemc1 was quite clear. The definition initially, supported by the decision, determined that an unmarked 12" drain is a water hazard. The question of the possibility of it also being an obstruction wasn't raised and would involve a different definition.

Marc's question is not so clear as the exact nature of the problem feature is not known, which is exactly why it has not been answered but more detail sought.

 

[Marc Cools]

1/

I imagine that for the original post it is a few meters of this :
with a slope of about 5% of the gras.

This is a water hazard?



2/

I don't have a picture of it on my course but it is the same as this one except that the tarmac is gras and the slope is about 5%. (And without a border like on the right on the picture.)


No locale rule about it on my home course.

 

[Slab]

I imagined from the opening post that its an uncovered man made 'ditch' or channel that runs for a couple of hundred yards to drain rainwater

Not sure if it being covered or not makes a diff to its status in terms of relief