Firm greens

[Greenkeeper]

I would value some feedback on a particular topic that’s hot in the greenkeeping world at the moment.

We are being encouraged to make our greens firmer and firmer, watering greens to make them receptive has become a big NO NO for some time now. Our governing bodies / education bodies are telling us to only water to keep the grass healthy NOT to manipulate the surface. Plus Water restrictions are going to hit us hard soon so watering this much may not be an option.
We are also being told by the PGA that the firmer the better, and we should make our greens as firm as possible. Some say there is no such thing as too firm and in fact firm greens are good greens. I happen to agree, but my question is.... is there such a thing as too firm for you?

I wait in anticipation

 

[par_par_par_treble]

i like firm greens, but when they are steeply sloping away from you, they can be really unfair at times.

 

[ColinR]

I would like to think that for the average golfer we are still able to get some bite on the greens. Most medium to high handicappers are not applying back spin on purpose ( although may be trying ) and often rely on the softness of the green to get some hold. If this is completely take away with the greens being very firm, approach shots will be a lot harder.

I'm sure there is some middle ground on this

 

[pjaz]

Good question. At the moment firms greens are something to look forward to after a winter of receptive greens marked by deep and often un-repaired picth marks (I'm sure you see enough of them).

However, as you indicate, firm can mean different things - as we'll see at Augusta and the US Open this year, and I'm not sure most would want that kind of firm.

Would it be better to use a reliable measure (is it called the stimpmeter they use?) and encourage all courses to achieve an industry standard of 10/11/12 at least that way everyone knows what they are getting themselves into - they could have this published in the pro shop - the greens are currently running at X.

However, would expect some club members will not be happy if there previously receptive greens are now like glass.

Look forward to the debate on this issue.

 

[par_par_par_treble]

doesnt the stimpmeter measure speed rather than firmness?

you could have a rock hard green, with longer grass meaning it still isnt too quick...

 

[pjaz]

doesnt the stimpmeter measure speed rather than firmness?

you could have a rock hard green, with longer grass meaning it still isnt too quick...

Yes, I think so, but I was suggesting something that would give us punters some idea of what to expect when we hit our first shot onto the green - nothing worse that watching a lovely approach shot bounce off and into deep rough because the greens are firm and you realise you should have played a pitch and run. The again we wouldn't have anything to moan about.

 

[thecraw]

I like a firm green as I tend to punch or hit in low runners.

 

[toonarmy]

I'd take smooth and slow over firm and bumpy any day.

For me, I don't mind if the greens are on-a-sixpence soft or concrete hard - it's all part of the game and to be adjusted like anything else. The idea that there should be some sort of measuring system for speed and firmness and for this to be on the noticeboard before commencing is very good and would be widely welcomed I suspect.

But without doubt the most important thing for me is that the greens run true. The 'browns' in Bahrain were quite firm (surprising as they look like bunkers from a distance!) but they were the truest thing I've ever putted on. Spike marks and pitch marks are to blame but they are not completely to blame for the run on greens.

Frankly, in this country, I'd be more than happy to putt on browns all year! Not sure where we'll get the people to do the sweeping after us though...

 

[Nico]

Pretty much agree with Toon here (apart from the browns).

It is all part of our lovely game.

Surely what we can do is allow the grass to grow slightly longer,which will slow them a little but would mean we need to water less and will make them good and firm.

 

[Sam]

Greenkeeper
Is firmness totally to do with frequency of watering?

 

[theeaglehunter]

to be honest I think that saying the firmer the better is nonscene, does that mean we'll get to the stage where there is no grass and just hard baked mud. I'm all for the challenge of trying to get the ball to run up to the flag, even if it means pitching the ball in front of the green when they are playing firm and you can't stop the ball on the green, but to make it nearly impossible for even highly skilled players to gain some control of spin on these hard greens would be silly I think.

There is nothing wrong with firm greens, just not stupidly firm. You have ti be reasonable towards the club golfer.

 

[brendy]

I know that grass begins to grow at 5 or 6 degrees celcius but at what point does it stop growing, ie in hard baked earth which is receiving little nutrients. Making the greens as unreceptive as possible only makes for higher svores.

 

[Greenkeeper]

Gentlemen this is brilliant stuff!

Firstly, the R&A have employed some boffin (former NASA scientist) to invent and tool to register firmness of greens. It’s called the thumper, rubbish name but it’s very clever in design. Hopefully when its developed further it can be available to all clubs. Watch this space

The key is to keep the grass healthy, whilst not using excessive water and fertiliser. We want growth but not lush growth. To achieve this we need to do a lot more than just switch of the water, in fact this could be detrimental. We need to improve drainage, encourage deeper roots, better grass species and reduce ‘thatch content’. Thatch is the biggest problem, it’s simply decomposing organic matter, dead grass clipping, roots etc and when left to develop it can build up and acts similar to a sponge. Its obviously a lot more complicated than this, but to get firm greens all year round we need good grass coverage and this is an accomplishment

To achieve smooth / firm / fast greens they need to be firm and FULL OF GRASS, so leaving the grass a little longer will help enormously, also allowing the greens to dry and go a little brown sometimes help root development and encourage better grasses, again very complex and I don’t want to bore you too much.

I am interested with your views from a playing perspective, architecturally we may need to address issues like bunkers in front of greens to allow the bump and run shot. Also cutting regimes may need addressing like long grass behind greens.

So may I ask, if the grass coverage is good and healthy albeit a little brown, but the greens are very firm / too firm for the average member, should we water to help you stop your ball? Or should you adapt your game accordingly?

I speak to many golfers and to be honest the best golfer prefers firm greens. Keeps this coming its good stuff.

Many thanks

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I am happy for firm and fast greens but only if I have an uphill putt ). I was surprised but our club captain actually asked for several greens to be rolled last year to make them firmer, flatter and quicker for the club championship.

The only downside I can see to this is that most club golfers do not hit any shot on the optimum trajectory and that all their shots come in low and hot. I can see how unless they land every approach short and run it on, this can be a little soul destroying especially as we all like to hit a crisp 9 iron onto the green and stop it as close as we can. For many mid-high handicappers that will be harder if the greens are not as receptive as in past years.

I don't think we will get into the state of browns (greenkeeper will correct me I'm sure) especially if the greens are getting some water. They will also draw moisture from morning an evening dew (unlike Bahrain) so I can envisage them still having more than a passing resemblance to greens. Mind you in the hot summer a couple of years ago some of our greens were burnt to a brown colour despite all the watering!!

An interesting topic and a question that should be asked of every greens committe in the land

 

[par_par_par_treble]

True greens are the Holy Grail as far as I’m concerned.

If they need to be a little firmer and less receptive to run truer, then that’s a price I’m willing to pay.

It has to be a compromise though, bearing in mind how most pros get on with Augusta!

 

[RGuk]

To my mind, firmer is better, but not rock hard!
Most average players hit into the green considering the "total" distance of the club selected. More often than not, shots come up short (if they haven't gone that well) and a healthy bump forwards is mostly going to play in our favour. Really good players like to really go for the flags and rely on a bit of spin. A well played short iron always has spin and there could be nothing worse than landing short and squishing a huge pitch mark and not hopping forward before the spin grabs and leaves you pin high?
Fast greens are for the most part firm greens too (in my experience), fast is easier to putt on, although not downhill maybe!!!!

 

[billyg]

For me, I don't mind if the greens are on-a-sixpence soft or concrete hard - it's all part of the game and to be adjusted like anything else.

seconded.

What next from the moaners? micrometer sensors buried in each cup ring telling you how the ambient afternoon temperature has expanded the hole by 12 molecules this week?

A gps/laser system triangulating the mean variance of slope ?

If it rains the greens offer more stop. If it doesn't rain surprise surprise - they don't. Beyond whatever is needed to keep the grass from wilting or suffering from a fungal bloom leave it be IMHO.

It only takes one nod to the green police in Brussels before they shut the game down as being responsible for causing global warming. Why give them any ammo?

Oh, and if you happen to be a self serving, pocket lining euro politician reading this - get a job!

 

[Marko77]

Hi Greenkeeper.

All in favour of firm greens, hate greens with lots of impressions and also reduces frequency of spike marks < in my opinion

 

[medwayjon]

Firmer the better for me, greens that are too soft scar easily, the dont play true enough when putting and they make shot-making difficult unless you want to bang it in pin-high everytime. I like to play punches or low-runners sometimes and greens that are too soft can kill the ball at the first bounce.

 

[Leftie]

Interesting topic Mr Greenkeeper.

Throughout the changing seasons we have to adapt our game to suit the conditions on the course. If we are not skilled enough to put a reasonable amount of check spin on shots into a firm green then we should maybe play the bump and run or whatever.

Whatever it takes for you to keep the greens in the best possible condition for the most possible time is OK by me.

We forum members can only benefit from your valuable and interesting input from "the other side".