Fallen Leaves

[Whereditgo]

Searching for balls amongst fallen leaves is a real pain on our course at the moment.

One of the members is adamant that a local rule can be put in place through the green along the lines of the water hazard rules, i.e. if there is knowledge or virtual certainty that a ball is lost in the leaves you can drop a replacement ball (I’m not sure whether or not he believes that would be under penalty or not!).

I have had a look in the Rules, but can’t find anything to verify his belief, and it does seem to me unlikely that such a local rule exists or would comply with the Rules of Golf.

Can someone point me in the right direction to either confirm his statement or (preferably) shoot him down in flames.

 

[delc]

Searching for balls amongst fallen leaves is a real pain on our course at the moment.

One of the members is adamant that a local rule can be put in place through the green along the lines of the water hazard rules, i.e. if there is knowledge or virtual certainty that a ball is lost in the leaves you can drop a replacement ball (I’m not sure whether or not he believes that would be under penalty or not!).

I have had a look in the Rules, but can’t find anything to verify his belief, and it does seem to me unlikely that such a local rule exists or would comply with the Rules of Golf.

Can someone point me in the right direction to either confirm his statement or (preferably) shoot him down in flames.

A ball lost in an area of fallen leaves is a lost ball, same as losing it in deep rough: End of story!

 

[Foxholer]

You can have a Local Rule in place to do anything! It must be obeyed, even if it goes against Rules of Golf! I know a club that has one that states that only Putters can be used for a stroke at a ball on the green! There is 1 green where a chip might be a more productive shot in certain circumstances!

However, I doubt whether the sort of LR the guy was suggesting would be a 'conforming' one! If not, it would make all comps where used NQ for handicap.

 

[Whereditgo]

You can have a Local Rule in place to do anything! It must be obeyed, even if it goes against Rules of Golf! I know a club that has one that states that only Putters can be used for a stroke at a ball on the green! There is 1 green where a chip might be a more productive shot in certain circumstances!

However, I doubt whether the sort of LR the guy was suggesting would be a 'conforming' one! If not, it would make all comps where used NQ for handicap.

Yes, that's pretty much what I thought, though he was of the mind that he had seen it within the Rules of Golf.

 

[chrisd]

Yes, that's pretty much what I thought, though he was of the mind that he had seen it within the Rules of Golf.

Ah .......... another great myth!

 

[delc]

Yes, that's pretty much what I thought, though he was of the mind that he had seen it within the Rules of Golf.

I have had a quick look through the Specimen Local Rules in Appendix I of the Rules of Golf, but cannot find one for balls lost in areas of fallen leaves! They do not fall within the definition of Abnormal Ground Conditions. Fallen leaves are loose impediments that can be moved through the green, but not in bunkers or water hazards.

 

[SteveBonners]

Decisions on the Rules of Golf 33-8/31 allows a committee to make a temporary local rule declaring accumulations of leaves through the green at certain holes to be "Ground under Repair". A player would then get relief under Rule 25-1. It must be known or virtually certain that if the ball is not found, that it is within the leaves.
This must be restricted to specified holes at which such a problem occurs.
This can also be extended to leaves in bunkers... Decision 13-4/33
I have come across the use of this local rule within bunkers during the autumn months, but have never seen the use of this local rule "through the green".

 

[delc]

Decisions on the Rules of Golf 33-8/31 allows a committee to make a temporary local rule declaring accumulations of leaves through the green at certain holes to be "Ground under Repair". A player would then get relief under Rule 25-1. It must be known or virtually certain that if the ball is not found, that it is within the leaves.
This must be restricted to specified holes at which such a problem occurs.
This can also be extended to leaves in bunkers... Decision 13-4/33
I have come across the use of this local rule within bunkers during the autumn months, but have never seen the use of this local rule "through the green".

Yes, I suppose the areas of fallen leaves could be declared to be GUR, but I have never seen this done in practice. In any case the leaves might fall in different areas on different days, depending on the wind direction. Fallen leaves are definitely loose impediments, but as they are natural, you cannot move them in hazards, except to identify your ball, after which you have to replace them. Our green keepers are blowing the dead leaves into areas of rough and them gathering them in for composting, so at least our fairways are remaining reasonable clear of leaves.

 

[Whereditgo]

Decisions on the Rules of Golf 33-8/31 allows a committee to make a temporary local rule declaring accumulations of leaves through the green at certain holes to be "Ground under Repair". A player would then get relief under Rule 25-1. It must be known or virtually certain that if the ball is not found, that it is within the leaves.
This must be restricted to specified holes at which such a problem occurs.
This can also be extended to leaves in bunkers... Decision 13-4/33
I have come across the use of this local rule within bunkers during the autumn months, but have never seen the use of this local rule "through the green".

Good find! So he was almost right.

 

[duncan mackie]

Yes, I suppose the areas of fallen leaves could be declared to be GUR, but I have never seen this done in practice. In any case the leaves might fall in different areas on different days, depending on the wind direction. Fallen leaves are definitely loose impediments, but as they are natural, you cannot move them in hazards, except to identify your ball, after which you have to replace them. Our green keepers are blowing the dead leaves into areas of rough and them gathering them in for composting, so at least our fairways are remaining reasonable clear of leaves.

Love the suppose and could in your reply - there's no suppose and clearly they can!

If the leaves are piled for collection - frequently the case when fairway leaf blowers are used, they will also constitute GUR by definition, and a ball lost in such a pile will be subject to the conditions of 25 -1c

And you do not need to replace all the leaves removed to identify a ball in a hazard; you are entitled to be able to see a small part of the ball when making your shot.

 

[delc]

Love the suppose and could in your reply - there's no suppose and clearly they can!

If the leaves are piled for collection - frequently the case when fairway leaf blowers are used, they will also constitute GUR by definition, and a ball lost in such a pile will be subject to the conditions of 25 -1c

And you do not need to replace all the leaves removed to identify a ball in a hazard; you are entitled to be able to see a small part of the ball when making your shot.

Two problems there:
1) We have never had a temporary local rule that areas of fallen leaves are GUR at any of the clubs I have been a member of.
2) Most of our trees are in areas of rough, so it is difficult to know if the fallen leaves around them are there naturally, or have been blown there by the green keepers' leaf blowers (unless you happen to catch them in the act).

 

[Colin L]

Two problems there:
1) We have never had a temporary local rule that areas of fallen leaves are GUR at any of the clubs I have been a member of.
2) Most of our trees are in areas of rough, so it is difficult to know if the fallen leaves around them are there naturally, or have been blown there by the green keepers' leaf blowers (unless you happen to catch them in the act).

What are the problems? Your clubs could have used the LR had the circumstances warranted it and if you don't know about the leaves you can't assume anything. Seems straightforward!

 

[delc]

What are the problems? Your clubs could have used the LR had the circumstances warranted it and if you don't know about the leaves you can't assume anything. Seems straightforward!

As I alluded to in a thread entitled "Autumn Leaves" in the Lounge section of the Forum, I have had several Playing Companions or Fellow Competitors lose balls in areas of fallen leaves in the last few weeks, although I have not lost one myself (yet). I tried very hard to find a get-out clause for them, but in the absence of a local rule I couldn't. I have re-read Rule 12 just to make sure I understood it properly. It states that you are not necessarily entitled to see the ball when making a stroke. If the ball is covered by sand, or loose impediments in a hazard, the player may move these in order to identify his ball, but must recreate the lie as nearly as possible, including replacing any loose impediments, with the proviso that he may leave a small part of the ball visible.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Can I confirm that if the greenkeepers rake or blow the leaves into piles they become GUR and able to take a drop away from them ?

 

[Whereditgo]

For clarity; the particular circumstance I was referring to in the OP did not involve leaves that had been blown or raked in any way, the member was simply referring to fallen leaves.

 

[delc]

Can I confirm that if the greenkeepers rake or blow the leaves into piles they become GUR and able to take a drop away from them ?

“Ground under repair” is any part of the course so marked by order of the Committee or so declared by its authorised representative. All ground and any grass, bush, tree or other growing thing within the ground under repair are part of the ground under repair. Ground under repair includes material piled for removal and a hole made by a greenkeeper, even if not so marked. Grass cuttings and other material left on the course that have been abandoned and are not intended to be removed are not ground under repair unless so marked.

So I guess you need to know whether or not the green keepers intend to remove the piles of leaves!

 

[Deleted member 15344]

“Ground under repair” is any part of the course so marked by order of the Committee or so declared by its authorised representative. All ground and any grass, bush, tree or other growing thing within the ground under repair are part of the ground under repair. Ground under repair includes material piled for removal and a hole made by a greenkeeper, even if not so marked. Grass cuttings and other material left on the course that have been abandoned and are not intended to be removed are not ground under repair unless so marked.

So I guess you need to know whether or not the green keepers intend to remove the piles of leaves!

Why did you type all that when it wasn't what I asked ?

 

[williamalex1]

Can I confirm that if the greenkeepers rake or blow the leaves into piles they become GUR and able to take a drop away from them ?

Re GUR , if FCs agree a ball is lost in GUR there's no penalty ???.

 

[delc]

Why did you type all that when it wasn't what I asked ?

I just copied and pasted from the definitions section of the Rule Book. The last two sentences are relevant to your question.

 

[Fyldewhite]

Re GUR , if FCs agree a ball is lost in GUR there's no penalty ???.

Correct. BUT......it has to be known or virtually certain that the ball is in the GUR. It's not just a case of all the players agreeing it's probably in there which is a common and incorrect interpretation.