ESR (again!)

[gryffindor]

Hi

My lad shot 4 and 5 under css in two consecutive days - gave him a reduction of 1.8 to 9.9 BUT I thought there would also be an ESR - club says that because he has already been cut 1.8 to cut another 1.0 would be too much.

Surely by the nature of ESR you MUST score 4 under or more twice for it to be considered so at the very least you will have already been cut 1.6 by the time it is considered - so the club is effectively saying that any ESR would be seen as too much - or am I missing something?

 

[rosecott]

Your committee must not have been paying attention when the country-wide seminars were being held prior to the 2012-15 CONGU handicap manual being published and brought into use. Here is what was said about what to do when there is an ESR recommendation:

"Committees are required to authorise this adjustment. Please DO NOT decline this adjustment."

 

[Ian_S]

As rosecott said, the rules on ESR are set out and I don't believe the committee should be ignoring them. Sounds like one or more members of it are in that group of people who like to think they know best.

I must admit, I always thought ESRs should be bigger cuts because taking 1 off when you've shot 4/5 under consistently doesn't seem much. But then, like you say, you've already been cut a shot or two through the normal procedure. Just google the Congu rules for ESR and show your committee them. It should be applied.

 

[Foxholer]

Hi

My lad shot 4 and 5 under css in two consecutive days - gave him a reduction of 1.8 to 9.9 BUT I thought there would also be an ESR - club says that because he has already been cut 1.8 to cut another 1.0 would be too much.

Surely by the nature of ESR you MUST score 4 under or more twice for it to be considered so at the very least you will have already been cut 1.6 by the time it is considered - so the club is effectively saying that any ESR would be seen as too much - or am I missing something?

ESR is currently only a recommendation.

However, this would be the first one I've heard of that hasn't been actioned.

I can't say I agree with the club's conclusion though. He's shot the equivalent of 8 over and 6 over (or maybe 7 over twice) and they want to keep him at 10! Your logic about how you get there reflects mine.

What's his age? There don't, by any chance, happen to be inter-club matches/competitions coming up that he'd likely be involved in?

I'd suggest you appeal to the club stressing your point about the purpose of the ESR. Also question whether they've taken the same approach on every other ESR that has happened.

 

[RobRob]

Congrats to your lad!

but i know at our club the ESR only tends to get broken out for -8 or repeated -4 or -5. A young lad shot a -8 followed by a -9 under the next day off his new handicap and he lost 8 shots in total that week!

 

[gryffindor]

Hi Foxholer - he is 13. (and yes, he is involved in a few inter club matches)

My main concern is that he can now play for his school senior team BUT his handicap must be less than 10.0 - in other words one round over buffer and he is out again :-( 8.9 would be a much better margin.

Odd thing is that his main competition at the club is another 13 year old - who is off 9.5. I am sure that the fact that this lad's dad is the pro and therefore the main component of the handicap committee is pure coincidence. And no, this is the only time that they have declined an ESR APART from the pro's son who was due a 2 cut the day before the Junior club champs but it was declined.

 

[chrisd]

I was given an ESR a couple of weeks ago. Under the old system, lovingly called Rule19, we were obliged to do a minimum whole shot cut but my ESR was .5 if it had been a whole shot I out be a single figure player - still gutted!

 

[Foxholer]

Hi Foxholer - he is 13. (and yes, he is involved in a few inter club matches)

My main concern is that he can now play for his school senior team BUT his handicap must be less than 10.0 - in other words one round over buffer and he is out again :-( 8.9 would be a much better margin.

Odd thing is that his main competition at the club is another 13 year old - who is off 9.5. I am sure that the fact that this lad's dad is the pro and therefore the main component of the handicap committee is pure coincidence. And no, this is the only time that they have declined an ESR APART from the pro's son who was due a 2 cut the day before the Junior club champs but it was declined.

Ha. Seems to me - though I may be completely wrong - that there are some vested interests at work - including yours, on his behalf, btw.

In the case of Juniors, I am even more convinced that ESRs recommended should be actioned. They traditionally improve faster than the system can cope with. In clubs where they are allowed to enter adult comps, this discrepancy becomes pretty obvious. In ones where they are separated the issue can be hidden - and even manipulated. What's your club's policy?

To me, and it's only on the evidence posted, it seems the club is keeping your lad's handicap falsely high. It's possible to appeal - and, if no result there, also to the Area Authority, as clubs are only delegated authority to maintain handicaps from Congu through Unions and Areas. However, such action can upset folk!

 

[harpo_72]

That's good scoring, but what tee are they playing off? Also is your boy allowed to play in men's medals off the whites?

 

[G1BB0]

Pfft how about a 5.4 cut cos thats what I got from the gits at my gaff!!!

 

[gryffindor]

That's good scoring, but what tee are they playing off? Also is your boy allowed to play in men's medals off the whites?

Club rule is that once they have a Congu handicap ALL play (including bounce) is off the whites. And yes, he does play in the adult medals and stablefords / Captains day etc.

And to answer foxholder - There is a vested interest. He has spent almost every day this summer at the club working on his short game and it is hard to explain why he has not got the cut he thinks he has earned. In a teenager's eyes, single figure handicap (i.e. 9) is Sooooooo much better than double figures (i.e. 10). It also effects his County selection and quite a few other things. It is hard to tell him to play fair above all else when that is not what he is seeing.

 

[harpo_72]

If its off the whites then what is their excuse? Just tell him to push on and win a medal, that will cause some more talk. Otherwise look at another club that is more ambitious with its juniors. He could go there pop in 3 cards and get a bigger handicap movement. The system has its loop holes ... Just find them and exploit them.

 

[NWJocko]

Is the situation of rapidly improving golfers, often youngsters, one of the reasons ESRs were introduced!?

Seems crazy, vested interests apart, not to apply it.

If that story with the pros son is true then the world has finally gone mad......

 

[ColchesterFC]

Hi

My lad shot 4 and 5 under css in two consecutive days - gave him a reduction of 1.8 to 9.9

4 and 5 under CSS on consecutive days off a handicap of 11.7? Bandit alert.

Only kidding. Of course that comment has nothing to do with jealousy that a 13 year old is talented enough to play that well while I hack it round in the deep stuff. That's some good golf. I just hope my boys enjoy playing enough to carry on with it and get good enough so that I can live my fantasy golf life vicariously through their ability.

 

[rosecott]

Pfft how about a 5.4 cut cos thats what I got from the gits at my gaff!!!

And, if you remember, you were told that they were completely out of order and should have been challenged.

 

[pbrown7582]

Congrats to your lad that's cracking golf :thup:
Hope the ESR comes through after you've pointed out to the commitee the errors of there way.

 

[gryffindor]

4 and 5 under CSS on consecutive days off a handicap of 11.7? Bandit alert.

Only kidding. Of course that comment has nothing to do with jealousy that a 13 year old is talented enough to play that well while I hack it round in the deep stuff. That's some good golf. I just hope my boys enjoy playing enough to carry on with it and get good enough so that I can live my fantasy golf life vicariously through their ability.

Sorry - my ambiguous post -should have been 4 and 5 under handicap against css - otherwise I would be looking for sponsorship from Nike right now!

You have a point - there are a lot of adults on the junior county tour living through their child's success - not really my thing - I just believe that if you work hard (at whatever discipline) then that should be recognized and if it isn't then a precedent is set by 'the authority' that can demotivate someone at an impressionable age. My son chooses to spend his days with his mates at the golf club rather than sitting on his a**e in Woking High Street and for that I will be forever grateful and long may it continue.

 

[G1BB0]

Hehe I know but buffered a few and played below twice so it was about right rosecott

 

[ColchesterFC]

Sorry - my ambiguous post -should have been 4 and 5 under handicap against css - otherwise I would be looking for sponsorship from Nike right now!

You have a point - there are a lot of adults on the junior county tour living through their child's success - not really my thing - I just believe that if you work hard (at whatever discipline) then that should be recognized and if it isn't then a precedent is set by 'the authority' that can demotivate someone at an impressionable age. My son chooses to spend his days with his mates at the golf club rather than sitting on his a**e in Woking High Street and for that I will be forever grateful and long may it continue.

Absolutely agree there are far too many pushy parents in all sports. I was at the range with my 4 year old and a middle aged guy came over and said that my boy wasn't holding the club properly and his stance wasn't quite right. If I posted my actual response here I'd get an infraction (or more likely a ban) but it was along the lines of "Why don't you go away and concentrate on your own game. He's 4 and just wants to hit it as far as possible". I just want him to enjoy coming to the range with me and if he still enjoys it when he's a bit older and wants to get lessons then I'll happily pay for them but for now I'm happy if he's happy.

 

[gryffindor]

Absolutely agree there are far too many pushy parents in all sports. I was at the range with my 4 year old and a middle aged guy came over and said that my boy wasn't holding the club properly and his stance wasn't quite right. If I posted my actual response here I'd get an infraction (or more likely a ban) but it was along the lines of "Why don't you go away and concentrate on your own game. He's 4 and just wants to hit it as far as possible". I just want him to enjoy coming to the range with me and if he still enjoys it when he's a bit older and wants to get lessons then I'll happily pay for them but for now I'm happy if he's happy.

Wait until he is 7 - then it has to go as high as possible - 1 yard off the green - flop shot is the only possible solution!