Dropping and placing

[Simbo]

Let's say iv overhit the green, the ball is plugged on a steep slope behind the green, I get a free drop for a plugged ball, I drop the ball twice and both times it's come to rest outwith 2 club lengths. I now place the ball where it landed. Am I correct in saying that as soon as I place the ball that ball is now in play?? If I place the ball and step away, the ball then rolls down the steep slope and onto the green I must play it from where it comes to rest?? Same case scenario for if it rolls into a bunker or something.

 

[rulefan]

Correct.

20-2c Note 1

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-20/

 

[Foxholer]

Correct.

20-2c Note 1

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-20/

Are you sure about that? Not doubting the action, simply the semantics/logic of 'how to get there'.

Hasn't the situation gone from being a Drop (20-2 originally a&b, then a&c for the Re-Drop) to 20-3 Placing - 'a' and, for this situation, 'd'? That ruling - no penalty; play it as it now lies is part of 20-3 d as opposed to being a Note to 20-2 b.

And depending on whether it immediately rolls (as soon as player removes with the ball) or stays still for a short period when placed, then rolls - it's not absolutely clear from the OP - either 20-3 d(i) applies (ball immediately rolls) or the rest of 20-3 d (ball rolls after being stationary for a period). Decision 20-3d/1 shows a similar difference!

All a bit over-detailed/pedantic, but as the position of the ball for the next stroke could be quite different, I believe it needs clarifying.

 

[duncan mackie]

Are you sure about that? Not doubting the action, simply the semantics/logic of 'how to get there'.

Hasn't the situation gone from being a Drop (20-2 originally a&b, then a&c for the Re-Drop) to 20-3 Placing - 'a' and, for this situation, 'd'? That ruling - no penalty; play it as it now lies is part of 20-3 d as opposed to being a Note to 20-2 b.

And depending on whether it immediately rolls (as soon as player removes with the ball) or stays still for a short period when placed, then rolls - it's not absolutely clear from the OP - either 20-3 d(i) applies (ball immediately rolls) or the rest of 20-3 d (ball rolls after being stationary for a period). Decision 20-3d/1 shows a similar difference!

All a bit over-detailed/pedantic, but as the position of the ball for the next stroke could be quite different, I believe it needs clarifying.

I agree with Rulefan

20 - 2c covers the question posed

1. When to redrop
2. When to place
3. What to do if the ball subsequently moves after it has been at rest (stationary)

 

[Foxholer]

I agree with Rulefan

20 - 2c covers the question posed

1. When to redrop
2. When to place
3. What to do if the ball subsequently moves after it has been at rest (stationary)

I agree that it covers 1 and 2 - and a bit of 3. But it is specifically for 'When to re-drop'! When there is a need to 'place', then what is needed etc, surely comes under 20-3 - in this case 'a' and 'd'.

There is nothing actually in 20-2 c that covers the stuff that 20-3d covers! So unless you are acting under 20-3d, can you explain how you can decide about how to act if the placed ball moves?!

As previously posted, a little pedantic, but, to me, fairly fundamental about the way The Rules should be applied! I could manufacture a flow-chart or Pseudo-code if you wish!

 

[duncan mackie]

I agree that it covers 1 and 2 - and a bit of 3. But it is specifically for 'When to re-drop'! When there is a need to 'place', then what is needed etc, surely comes under 20-3 - in this case 'a' and 'd'.

There is nothing actually in 20-2 c that covers the stuff that 20-3d covers! So unless you are acting under 20-3d, can you explain how you can decide about how to act if the placed ball moves?!

As previously posted, a little pedantic, but, to me, fairly fundamental about the way The Rules should be applied! I could manufacture a flow-chart or Pseudo-code if you wish!

The sentence prior to note 1 together with note 1 do cover it.

However I would agree that 20 - 2c doesn't cover absolutely everything! eg what to do if the placed ball interferes with a fellow competitors stance........etc etc etc

 

[Foxholer]

The sentence prior to note 1 together with note 1 do cover it.

But surely you would agree that there is nothing actually in 20-2c that covers a subsequent ball that won't stay where placed. And it only needs to be placed (in the OP's case) if it rolls further than 2 club lengths when dropped.

Note 1 of 20-2c deals solely with a ball successfully dropped/re-dropped that becomes stationary, then subsequently moves. It's nothing to do with a Placed ball!

And the fact that the sentence above it states that it must be Placed after re-drop means we then have to go to the 'Placing' area of the Rules - which is what my first post suggested. In that area (20-3) there are different things to do should the ball move without player influence - dependent on whether it was ever 'at rest' (20-3d).

 

[duncan mackie]

But surely you would agree that there is nothing actually in 20-2c that covers a subsequent ball that won't stay where placed. And it only needs to be placed (in the OP's case) if it rolls further than 2 club lengths when dropped.

Note 1 of 20-2c deals solely with a ball successfully dropped/re-dropped that becomes stationary, then subsequently moves. It's nothing to do with a Placed ball!

And the fact that the sentence above it states that it must be Placed after re-drop means we then have to go to the 'Placing' area of the Rules - which is what my first post suggested. In that area (20-3) there are different things to do should the ball move without player influence - dependent on whether it was ever 'at rest' (20-3d).

Yes- and as I posted there's nothing in that rule regarding what happens if it's in a fellow competitors way after being placed, if AGC now interfere with the player's stance after being placed, if it's now sitting on an immovable obstruction etc etc. Not remaining where placed is just another subsequent situation that follows on from the act of placing (or mose specifically failure to be able to place as required by the wider rules)

 

[Foxholer]

Yes- and as I posted there's nothing in that rule regarding what happens if it's in a fellow competitors way after being placed, if AGC now interfere with the player's stance after being placed, if it's now sitting on an immovable obstruction etc etc. Not remaining where placed is just another subsequent situation that follows on from the act of placing (or mose specifically failure to be able to place as required by the wider rules)

I agree, each state has to be dealt with separately - and serially!

But surely Note 1 of 20-2c can't apply to this failure to stay where it was! As that's about a dropped ball, not a placed one!

Again, that's what I queried in my original post!

I believe Note 1 of 20-2c is irrelevant to this case, as the Dropped ball never 'came to rest then subsequently moved'. It's the equivalent for Placed balls (administered under 20-3d) that is relevant - in this case.

 

[rulefan]

I agree, each state has to be dealt with separately - and serially!

But surely Note 1 of 20-2c can't apply to this failure to stay where it was! As that's about a dropped ball, not a placed one!

Again, that's what I queried in my original post!

I believe Note 1 of 20-2c is irrelevant to this case, as the Dropped ball never 'came to rest then subsequently moved'. It's the equivalent for Placed balls (administered under 20-3d) that is relevant - in this case.

Note the headings to 20-2 and 20-3.

The OP is about where the action to get the ball into play is dropping not placing. That is why I quoted 20-2.
If the OP had been a question about a ball to be placed or replaced in order to get it into play, I would have referred to 20-3.

20-2 Note 1 is specifically about the procedure for placing the ball if the original drops were not satisfactory.
20-3 is not about that situation and is therefore not relevant to the question posed.

 

[Foxholer]

Let's say iv overhit the green, the ball is plugged on a steep slope behind the green, I get a free drop for a plugged ball, I drop the ball twice and both times it's come to rest outwith 2 club lengths. I now place the ball where it landed. Am I correct in saying that as soon as I place the ball that ball is now in play?? If I place the ball and step away, the ball then rolls down the steep slope and onto the green I must play it from where it comes to rest?? Same case scenario for if it rolls into a bunker or something.

Note the headings to 20-2 and 20-3.

The OP is about where the action to get the ball into play is dropping not placing. That is why I quoted 20-2.
If the OP had been a question about a ball to be placed or replaced in order to get it into play, I would have referred to 20-3.

20-2 Note 1 is specifically about the procedure for placing the ball if the original drops were not satisfactory.
20-3 is not about that situation and is therefore not relevant to the question posed.

Originally it might have been - starting from the Drop. But after a Drop and Re-Drop, it's about Placing it!

And the Note 1 (to 20-2) I'm looking at is nothing to do with Placing.

Note 1: If a ball when dropped or re-dropped comes to rest and subsequently moves, the ball must be played as it lies, unless the provisions of any other Rule apply

Surely the second bold bit above is about Placing - aka 20-3.

 

[rulefan]

The OP says

Am I correct in saying that as soon as I place the ball that ball is now in play?? If I place the ball and step away, the ball then rolls down the steep slope and onto the green I must play it from where it comes to rest??

That is exactly what 20-2 is all about.
Once the ball has been placed and is at rest, Rule 20 is over and done with.
The bold words imply the ball was at rest. Simbo has said nothing to counter that.

 

[Simbo]

Thanks for the input chaps, ok, I'll try for a bit of clarification , I thought I had been clear when I posted at first, this is not about dropping, it's about placing after the 2 drops have rolled outwith their allocated area. The reason I said step away, implies that I have placed the ball in the correct spot but it can't hold it's position due to the severity of the slope. I guess the rule then comes down the the interpretation of how long the ball must be at rest for??? If I place the ball and it moves immediately what happens?? How long must the ball be at rest for before it needs played as it lies if it rolls 20 feet??

Thanks again

 

[Foxholer]

The OP says

Am I correct in saying that as soon as I place the ball that ball is now in play?? If I place the ball and step away, the ball then rolls down the steep slope and onto the green I must play it from where it comes to rest??

That is exactly what 20-2 is all about.
Once the ball has been placed and is at rest, Rule 20 is over and done with.
The bold words imply the ball was at rest. Simbo has said nothing to counter that.

Working from the bottom....
Those bold words - the implication - was what I meant by 'not absolutely clear', and Simbo's post #13 still doesn't fully clarify. Rulings for both? I believe if the ball moves immediately, then after a 2nd Replace attempt fails then, in this case, it must be placed (no penalty) at the nearest spot where it can be placed at rest that is not nearer the hole and not in a hazard (20-3d i). If it doesn't move immediately, but does subsequently move of its own accord, then played as it lies, again no Penalty. This is 20-3 d!

I think I see what you mean about Rule 20 being over and done with, as what might/might not subsequently happen to the ball and the appropriate ruling is no different to 'normal' play that didn't/hadn't involve/d any Drop/Placement.

But I'm still confused why you are talking about 20-2. By the same logic as above, 20-2 was done with as soon as the ball rolled more than 2 club lengths the 2nd time - as Rule 20-3 Placing and Replacing becomes the relevant one.
And as Simbo has posted in #13 the question is all about the Placing, not the Dropping.

 

[rulefan]

Thanks for the input chaps, ok, I'll try for a bit of clarification , I thought I had been clear when I posted at first, this is not about dropping, it's about placing after the 2 drops have rolled outwith their allocated area. The reason I said step away, implies that I have placed the ball in the correct spot but it can't hold it's position due to the severity of the slope. I guess the rule then comes down the the interpretation of how long the ball must be at rest for??? If I place the ball and it moves immediately what happens?? How long must the ball be at rest for before it needs played as it lies if it rolls 20 feet??

Thanks again

There is no specified time for it to be at rest. However, it is generally taken to be a couple of seconds or so.
If it remains at rest for longer and the player doesn't cause it to move, it doesn't matter how far or where it rolls to, play it as it lies.
If it won't remain at rest, place it at the nearest position, not nearer the hole, where it will remain at rest. This is where 20-3d comes in.

 

[rulefan]

I think I see what you mean about Rule 20 being over and done with, as what might/might not subsequently happen to the ball and the appropriate ruling is no different to 'normal' play that didn't/hadn't involve/d any Drop/Placement.

But I'm still confused why you are talking about 20-2.

I read the OP to mean the ball had been at rest. Standing up and stepping away is more than the norm accepted for a ball to be at rest. Simbo's clarification came later.

 

[Foxholer]

I read the OP to mean the ball had been at rest. Standing up and stepping away is more than the norm accepted for a ball to be at rest. Simbo's clarification came later.

That explains our difference. :thup:

So have we actually got to the result? I think it was as I posted in the first para of#14. Agreed?

 

[rulefan]

:thup:

 

[Simbo]

Thanks again. Good discussion there guys, pretty knowledgable:thup: