Drop from path - Nearest Point of relief - please help

[GreggerKBR]

I've read and read and read. Asked different people (good knowledgeable people) and I'm still not sure people seem to have different ideas and I find the way it's written a bit confusing.

(a) Do you take your stance both side of the path, mark nearest point where the ball would be dropped and then calculate which is nearest to where the ball lay on the path?

(b) Or do you find the nearest point on the course to where the ball lies, mark it, and then take your stance and take your drop?
Even if it means the ball will eventually be played from a farther point?

Thanks!

 

[rulefan]

1) Don't lift your ball yet. *
2) Take a stance on one side of the path where your feet are clear of the path. Place a marker, not nearer the hole (off the path), where it would be if you addressed it with the club you would have used from the path if it wasn't there. Check that the path does not interfere with your intended swing. Mark where the ball lies.
3) Repeat on the other side of the path.
4) Determine which mark is nearer your original ball. That is the NPR.

Check the area within 1cl of the mark, that is not nearer the hole on still gives you relief, to see if you will have a better lie than playing from the path.
If it is OK, then drop your ball.

* If you had lifted your ball and didn't like the prospective drop area, it would cost you another stroke to replace it on the path.

Once you have got familiar with the process, more often than not it will be obvious which is the correct side. So you won't need to go through the double procedure.

 

[backwoodsman]

See diagram which illustrates what rulefan says . NPoR is whichever of the distance 1 and distance 2 is the shortest

 

[GreggerKBR]

Cheers Gents.
This is exactly how I understood it!
Is that an R&A sketch - the one they use on Rules of golf is less obvious?

Thankfully that's how I called it during the match and it made a really big difference!
I lost the hole as a result, but had we done it the other way, I would've won it as my oppo would have had no shot at all (not sad still won 4&3!).

Amazing how people will try persuade you that you are wrong...

 

[GreggerKBR]

 

[backwoodsman]

Cheers Gents.
This is exactly how I understood it!
Is that an R&A sketch - the one they use on Rules of golf is less obvious?

Thankfully that's how I called it during the match and it made a really big difference!
I lost the hole as a result, but had we done it the other way, I would've won it as my oppo would have had no shot at all (not sad still won 4&3!).

Amazing how people will try persuade you that you are wrong...

No, it's my sketch rather than a R&A one.

To clarify - the red dots show the position of the ball at possible NPoR. Once you have determined which is the actual nearest, you then get the club length within which to drop (which is the quadrant the R&A illustrate on their drawing).

And as the sketch shows reasonably clearly, on the relatively narrow paths on golf courses, due to the "depth" of your stance, it is frequently more likely that the NPoR will be behind you rather than in front.

 

[rulie]

Of course, these drawings only show the NPR for right-handed players. They are different for left-handed players.

 

[backwoodsman]

Of course, these drawings only show the NPR for right-handed players. They are different for left-handed players.

Hmmm ....

I agree as regards the R&A drawing - but l think you'll find mine is ambidextrous - as l don't show direction of play, nor the area within which the ball needs to be dropped .

 

[GreggerKBR]

Hmmm ....

I agree as regards the R&A drawing - but l think you'll find mine is ambidextrous - as l don't show direction of play, nor the area within which the ball needs to be dropped .

Think you should send yours to the R&A!!!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

So understanding all of the above. Today I find myself on a rough stoney track down LHS of fairway. I had pulled my approach to the green left and so I'm on the track - pretty much level with the flag - but with a bunker between ball and flag.

My ball was a couple of feet from the LHS of the track and maybe 4 ft from the RHS of it. So my NPR will be the LHS. Problem is that left of the track there is an overgrown bank about three or four foot deep running to the out of bounds hedge. Very Long grass and weeds cover the bank.

By pushing my backside and body hard into the hedge there is just enough room to mark a NPR at the very edge of the bank. But I can't take a swing for a shot towards the green - never mind the flag. If I dropped at the NPR the ball would almost certainly bury deep in the rough or bounce onto the track.

However I tell myself that this is just tough. The fact that I can take an albeit very uncomfortable stance well that's that. I either drop or I play it off the track - or take S&D. Playing S&D was not a good option for a number of reasons so I played it off the track 20yds back down the fairway.

Was my analysis of the situation correct and did I make the correct decision?

 

[Old Skier]

Depends if there is a local rule stating if you can take relief from a path.

 

[duncan mackie]

Depends if there is a local rule stating if you can take relief from a path.

Not really...

Firstly it would depend on whether the path constituted an Immovable Obstruction as defined in the rules. If it does then only a LR designating it as an integral part of the course would be relevant.

If it doesn't (constitute an IO) then there could still be a LR designating relief options....but the default for a path that constitutes an IO is that relief is available.

 

[rulefan]

Was my analysis of the situation correct and did I make the correct decision?

This decision seems to fit the bill

[h=2]24-2b/3[/h] [h=4]Player Determines Nearest Point of Relief But Physically Unable to Play Intended Stroke[/h]Q.In proceeding under Rule 24-2b(i) or Rule 25-1b(i), the Definition of "Nearest Point of Relief" provides that to determine the nearest point of relief accurately, the player should use the club, address position, direction of play and swing (right or left-handed) that he would have used to make his next stroke had the obstruction or condition not been there. What is the procedure if, having determined the stroke he would have used, he is unable physically to make such a stroke from, what would appear to be, the nearest point of relief because either (a) the direction of play is blocked by a tree, or (b) he is unable to take the backswing for the intended stroke due to a bush?

A.The point identified is the nearest point of relief. The fact that at this point the player cannot make the intended stroke due to something other than the obstruction or condition from which relief is being taken does not alter this result. The player must drop the ball within one club-length of the nearest point of relief, not nearer the hole. Once the ball is in play, the player must then decide what type of stroke he will make. This stroke may be different from the one he would have made from the ball's original position had the obstruction or condition not been there.

 

[backwoodsman]

So understanding all of the above. Today I find myself on a rough stoney track down LHS of fairway. I had pulled my approach to the green left and so I'm on the track - pretty much level with the flag - but with a bunker between ball and flag.

My ball was a couple of feet from the LHS of the track and maybe 4 ft from the RHS of it. So my NPR will be the LHS. Problem is that left of the track there is an overgrown bank about three or four foot deep running to the out of bounds hedge. Very Long grass and weeds cover the bank.

By pushing my backside and body hard into the hedge there is just enough room to mark a NPR at the very edge of the bank. But I can't take a swing for a shot towards the green - never mind the flag. If I dropped at the NPR the ball would almost certainly bury deep in the rough or bounce onto the track.

However I tell myself that this is just tough. The fact that I can take an albeit very uncomfortable stance well that's that. I either drop or I play it off the track - or take S&D. Playing S&D was not a good option for a number of reasons so I played it off the track 20yds back down the fairway.

Was my analysis of the situation correct and did I make the correct decision?

I think your analysis is correct. Nearest point of relief does not take account of the playability of the location . It is simply a point defined by the rules. A player has to determine whether the relief offered by NPoR is to their advantage as compared to the actual lie of the ball. Seems in yor case the potential relief was less advantageous that the existing lie.

 

[upsidedown]

Had similar in County match on Thursday, ball on path and NPR would have meant no swing due to proximity of hedge so played off the path with a Hybrid.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

So looks good so far (in that I did the right thing). Couple of additional questions if I had decided to taker a drop. As I can drop within one club length of the NPR can I drop on the track I am taking relief from? If I drop not on the track and it bounces on to the track ends up not nearer the hole than my NPR and within two club lengths of the NPR - but has a decent lie on the track - can I play it? I am thinking not as in taking relief from the track I must take full relief from the track - so neither stance nor ball on the track after I drop. And if I have to place in the rough and place it very gently not down deep in the rough - if the ball moves after I have placed it, is my act of placing it precariously in an attempt to get a decent lie the cause of the ball moving and so I am penalised?

 

[backwoodsman]

So looks good so far (in that I did the right thing). Couple of additional questions if I had decided to taker a drop. As I can drop within one club length of the NPR can I (a)drop on the track I am taking relief from? If I drop not on the track and it bounces on to the track ends up not nearer the hole than my NPR and within two club lengths of the NPR -(b) but has a decent lie on the track - can I play it? I am thinking not as in taking relief from the track I must take full relief from the track - so neither stance nor ball on the track after I drop. And if I have to place in the rough and place it very gently not down deep in the rough - (c)if the ball moves after I have placed it, is my act of placing it precariously in an attempt to get a decent lie the cause of the ball moving and so I am penalised?

(a) No, you can't drop it on the track. In respect of immovable obstructions, rule 24-2b (i) says you have to drop at a point free from interference from the condition you're taking relief from.

(b) If, after being dropped, the ball rolls onto the path, then no, you can't play it. Rule 20-2c (v) (ie the one about lifting, dropping etc) says you have to re-drop the ball (or eventually replace it) if it rolls to a point where interference from original condition arises.

(c) Rule 20-3 d says that if the ball comes to rest at the spot on which it is placed, and then subsequently moves, then there is no penalty and the ball has to be played as it lies - unless the provisions of another rule apply. So, if the ball is at rest, albeit precariously, then it is at rest - and you have to determine the cause of the ball moving after it was at rest. If it was something you did, then there'd be a penalty

 

[pogle]

So understanding all of the above. Today I find myself on a rough stoney track down LHS of fairway. I had pulled my approach to the green left and so I'm on the track - pretty much level with the flag - but with a bunker between ball and flag.

My ball was a couple of feet from the LHS of the track and maybe 4 ft from the RHS of it. So my NPR will be the LHS. Problem is that left of the track there is an overgrown bank about three or four foot deep running to the out of bounds hedge. Very Long grass and weeds cover the bank.

By pushing my backside and body hard into the hedge there is just enough room to mark a NPR at the very edge of the bank. But I can't take a swing for a shot towards the green - never mind the flag. If I dropped at the NPR the ball would almost certainly bury deep in the rough or bounce onto the track.

However I tell myself that this is just tough. The fact that I can take an albeit very uncomfortable stance well that's that. I either drop or I play it off the track - or take S&D. Playing S&D was not a good option for a number of reasons so I played it off the track 20yds back down the fairway.

Was my analysis of the situation correct and did I make the correct decision?

S&D was not your only penalty option. Depending on the exact layout of the situation, you may have been able to drop a ball within two club lengths under the unplayable ball rule. This drop can be on the path. You may then have been able to take relief from the path in a more favourable spot. It depends on the exact layout, including width of the track.

Of course, you also run the risk of getting a bad bounce and suddenly finding yourself in an even worse spot .....

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

S&D was not your only penalty option. Depending on the exact layout of the situation, you may have been able to drop a ball within two club lengths under the unplayable ball rule. This drop can be on the path. You may then have been able to take relief from the path in a more favourable spot. It depends on the exact layout, including width of the track.

Of course, you also run the risk of getting a bad bounce and suddenly finding yourself in an even worse spot .....

good point - I didn't consider that but with the lie of things two club lengths not nearer the hole probably would have found me dropping and eventually placing on the track.

One thing I didn't mention. When I tried to take a stance showing my back into the boundary hedge I did not consider my intended direction of play. I just took it that if I could in any way take a stance with the ball off the track then that was my NPR. Does the fact that my stance and address woiuld have been for a shot at right angles to any direction of play towards the green make any difference. Is the NPR agnostic of likely/preferred direction of play?

That said - taking a stance for a shot towards the green I wouldn't be sticking backside into the hedge and my drop would have been in deep rough - but that drop position would not have been at the edge of the track - it would have been half of my stance width from the track - is that a valid NPR?

 

[Colin L]

I think you are misunderstanding the nature of the nearest point of relief. It does not matter whether you can physically take a stance or make a stroke because of something else like a tree or a bush (see the answer to the Decision rulefan reference above). Imagine there is nothing else on the course other than the obstruction or abnormal condition you are taking relief from - no tree, no bush, no rock, no immovable obstruction, no slope so steep you couldn't hope to stand on it etc. The NPR is literally the nearest point on that empty landscape at which there would be complete relief and you must drop within a club length of it. Blink twice and restore all the reality of trees, bushes, park benches etc. etc. It makes no difference if there is something that makes the NPR is unreachable or, for that matter, that there is nowhere within a club length you can drop or play from.

In your situation, the hedge and whether you could play a shot from it are irrelevant to establishing your NPR. You imagine the shot you would have played had there been no path and, using the same club and stance, establish the point where that shot would be free from interference by the path.