Driving like an Iron

[Papas1982]

Played a fellow member today for the first time.

On the first hole i thought his set up looked peculiar. Not that i think i have some ideal swing, when i mentioned it, he said that he stands taller and hits the driver more like an iron.

I have always swept mine and occasionally will hit turn before ball if my descent is too steep. I very rarely hit ground before ball when using my irons. So i gave it a go on a few holes. Distance seemed to drop back about 15-20 yards but the ball flight although a little high was very straight. Missed 1/6 fairways when trying it and i reckon that was ball alignment than swing plane.

This guy hit all bar one fairway. His handicap was 21 so obviously has areas to work on, but the driver accuracy was superb. Said it was a typical day. He was quite short though, topped out at 200 yards.

Anybody else tried driving like this, or is sweeping the only way to go?

 

[the_coach]

Played a fellow member today for the first time.

On the first hole i thought his set up looked peculiar. Not that i think i have some ideal swing, when i mentioned it, he said that he stands taller and hits the driver more like an iron.

I have always swept mine and occasionally will hit turn before ball if my descent is too steep. I very rarely hit ground before ball when using my irons. So i gave it a go on a few holes. Distance seemed to drop back about 15-20 yards but the ball flight although a little high was very straight. Missed 1/6 fairways when trying it and i reckon that was ball alignment than swing plane.

This guy hit all bar one fairway. His handicap was 21 so obviously has areas to work on, but the driver accuracy was superb. Said it was a typical day. He was quite short though, topped out at 200 yards.

Anybody else tried driving like this, or is sweeping the only way to go?

It's pretty universally accepted now that the AoA with a driver should be an upward swing through the ball on a +AoA the lowest point of the swing arc being before the club gets to the ball. That's what will give you the best launch angle and lowest spin rate which gives you the longest carry and greatest overall distance.

 

[Papas1982]

It's pretty universally accepted now that the AoA with a driver should be an upward swing through the ball on a +AoA the lowest point of the swing arc being before the club gets to the ball. That's what will give you the best launch angle and lowest spin rate which gives you the longest carry and greatest overall distance.

I think the swing he used an i attempted did that. Wasn't hitting down on the ball like an iron as such. Just was more an upright stance, still had ball forwards and hit up. Just didn't sweep club around the body as usually would.

 

[mab]

It's pretty universally accepted now that the AoA with a driver should be an upward swing through the ball on a +AoA the lowest point of the swing arc being before the club gets to the ball. That's what will give you the best launch angle and lowest spin rate which gives you the longest carry and greatest overall distance.

Whilst everything you have said is true re: launch optimisation, there are advocates of negative AoA for straightness and consistency:

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-instruction/2012-02/sean-foley-down-driver

Edit: Also worth noting the average AoA on the PGA Tour is around -1.0* from memory, i.e. a negative AoA.

 

[the_coach]

Whilst everything you have said is true re: launch optimisation, there are advocates of negative AoA for straightness and consistency:

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-instruction/2012-02/sean-foley-down-driver

Edit: Also worth noting the average AoA on the PGA Tour is around -1.0* from memory, i.e. a negative AoA.

Some folks who hit it a long ways on Tour if for some reason they don't want to use a 3 metal for accuracy still sometimes swing down, about every one degree you hit down with a driver at tour average swing speed (112mph) you lose 7/8 yards of distance. You really don't often see it nowadays though.

Only player that regularly does it now still, because they did it from childhood and isn't a great practicer to want to go that way to change at this stage in their career, was never against her peers a short hitter anyways, she has a slight downwards AoA because as far as I recall she never used or uses a tee, just knocks up the turf (green keepers not a fan would guess) and that's the English woman Laura Davies.

This downwards attack angle also tends to encourage a much higher spin rate and also a bit of an out to in swing path, very difficult to swing in to out and hit downwards as in, in to out path it's always much more shallow at approach.
So if you go downwards (personally wouldn't recommend it) allow for a fade, less SS, more back spin, you can be more accurate but short if you get this right.
A handicap golfer will have to be careful as you also tend to leave the face more open, so they could lose distance and still end up off the fairway, would be better for most to use a 3 metal instead I would think.

Tour average figures for downward attack you quote are for some 5 or 6 years ago, I think may even been 2008.

Would very much expect that to be very different given the recent (18 months or so) data that Trackman have been compiling.
The player back then that had the biggest downward attack with the driver was Charles Howell 111, it used to be some -7.5, but he was still very inaccurate with it, and has since changed completely but still not a great driver of the ball.

As handicap players in particular can't really afford much of a distance loss, would be far better from them to work and practice on an upward path, as that also helps to promote and in to out swing path.
If worried about the accuracy with driver rather than trying to develop a downward AoA it would be better for most to use a 3 metal.

 

[mab]

Some folks who hit it a long ways on Tour if for some reason they don't want to use a 3 metal for accuracy still sometimes swing down, about every one degree you hit down with a driver at tour average swing speed (112mph) you lose 7/8 yards of distance. You really don't often see it nowadays though.

Only player that regularly does it now still, because they did it from childhood and isn't a great practicer to want to go that way to change at this stage in their career, was never against her peers a short hitter anyways, she has a slight downwards AoA because as far as I recall she never used or uses a tee, just knocks up the turf (green keepers not a fan would guess) and that's the English woman Laura Davies.

This downwards attack angle also tends to encourage a much higher spin rate and also a bit of an out to in swing path, very difficult to swing in to out and hit downwards as in, in to out path it's always much more shallow at approach.
So if you go downwards (personally wouldn't recommend it) allow for a fade, less SS, more back spin, you can be more accurate but short if you get this right.
A handicap golfer will have to be careful as you also tend to leave the face more open, so they could lose distance and still end up off the fairway, would be better for most to use a 3 metal instead I would think.

Tour average figures for downward attack you quote are for some 5 or 6 years ago, I think may even been 2008.

Would very much expect that to be very different given the recent (18 months or so) data that Trackman have been compiling.
The player back then that had the biggest downward attack with the driver was Charles Howell 111, it used to be some -7.5, but he was still very inaccurate with it, and has since changed completely but still not a great driver of the ball.

As handicap players in particular can't really afford much of a distance loss, would be far better from them to work and practice on an upward path, as that also helps to promote and in to out swing path.
If worried about the accuracy with driver rather than trying to develop a downward AoA it would be better for most to use a 3 metal.

Great info - thanks.

Personally, I tried to increase my AoA last year and struggled with retaining my weight on my back foot as a result, which led to some unsightly hooks. Over winter and coming into the new season, I've decided to be happy with my current fairly level AoA which enables me to more easily shift my weight to where it needs to be during the swing.

For what it's worth, according to my most recent info I understand the 2013 Trackman stats compilation show a -1.3* average AoA for the PGA Tour. Have a look at this link:

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/828815-updated-2013-trackman-pga-tour-averages/

Ps. I found the Charles Howell III vs. Bubba Watson overview by Tom Wishon, which I'm sure you've read, very interesting. I also find it really interesting that Charles Howell III is probably most famous for having the most negative AoA in progressional golf! :-D

 

[the_coach]

Great info - thanks.

Personally, I tried to increase my AoA last year and struggled with retaining my weight on my back foot as a result, which led to some unsightly hooks. Over winter and coming into the new season, I've decided to be happy with my current fairly level AoA which enables me to more easily shift my weight to where it needs to be during the swing.

For what it's worth, according to my most recent info I understand the 2013 Trackman stats compilation show a -1.3* average AoA for the PGA Tour. Have a look at this link:

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/828815-updated-2013-trackman-pga-tour-averages/

Ps. I found the Charles Howell III vs. Bubba Watson overview by Tom Wishon, which I'm sure you've read, very interesting. I also find it really interesting that Charles Howell III is probably most famous for having the most negative AoA in progressional golf! :-D

One thing you could look into, should you want to continue to look into a bigger +AoA, or simply just getting rid of a - negative AoA. Is, address & set-up and ball position.

Driver & (but the same is true for all clubs) spine angles at address.
I say angles because there should be 2, one, the more obvious forward spine angle but also sometimes the one folks forget about, is, the spine tilt away from target. (You may already be aware so forgive me if you are, but just in case it may be of some help)

Because your right hand is lower than the left, {therefore right arm slightly softened at the elbow and lower than the left if viewed from DTL, a straight right arm at address will be higher or at least the same height as the left from DTL and this tends to open the chest and shoulders at address & also keep them too level which is more likely to promote an out to in swing & steeper negative AoA} the whole of your right side will be a little lower than the left, right knee lower, right hip lower, right shoulder lower giving the spine a tilt away from target as well as forward tilt towards ball, thus beginning to at set up already be in a position to help promote an upward attack angle and also because the driver has the furthest left ball position, opposite left instep/heel and also on the highest tee (equator of ball level with top of driver when driver resting on ground)

These things before you even start the swing help put the lowest point of the swing arc a few inches before the club head arrives at the ball, that in essence is all a + upwards angle of attack is.
If you think of this, where the lowest point of the swing arc is, and you set up as described this will help give you the feeling of an upward AoA but that your weight can still be transferred left easily and you'll still get the low point where it should be so staying back right should with a bit of practice become a thing of the past.

Another interesting point is where you address the ball in the width of the drivers face.

If you always address the driver by hovering it off ground behind ball, then the ball should be addressed with a driver in the middle of the face.

But if you're someone who addresses ball with driver on the ground the ball will need to be nearer toe at address.

Check by having driver on floor and address the ball in the middle of the face, if you then raise the head up behind the ball to the height the face will be through impact, and you'll see the ball will be off the heel end of the drivers face. Hence why if on the ground the ball should be addressed nearer the toe, then when you raise it to impact height it will be plumb in the middle.

Lots of folks miss this and wonder why they never get many centered hits through impact with a driver in particular.

 

[Stuey01]

If I wanted to drive it 200 yards in the fairway I'd just hit an easy 7 iron
:fore:

Boom boom :whoo:

 

[Foxholer]

Great info - thanks.
For what it's worth, according to my most recent info I understand the 2013 Trackman stats compilation show a -1.3* average AoA for the PGA Tour. Have a look at this link:

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/828815-updated-2013-trackman-pga-tour-averages/

Apparently that's still 2009 data!

Read a bit further down - Posts 11 and 16!

 

[bluewolf]

Some great points made on this thread.. It's a conversation I've been having regularly with my PP regarding AoA and ball position against the driver face when set up...:thup:

 

[chellie]

My Pro has me using the same set up for driver and irons. Will this change as I go on.........

 

[the_coach]

My Pro has me using the same set up for driver and irons. Will this change as I go on.........

Not really understanding what exactly you are referencing in your mention of 'set-up' being the same, some parts should be, but also there should be slight differences in set-up from the beginning and providing they are right they won't really change that much, unless a faults developed along the way, then things will change to get back to good set-up fundamentals.

It will be the same in terms of how you hold the club your grip, your aim in reference to ball/target line your body should be being aimed square to this, shoulders, chest, hips, knees, feet being all aimed parallel left of target, and ball/target line.

You'll have a forward (towards the ball/target line) leaning spine angle plus a spine tilt slightly away from target.
But the 'forward leaning' spine angle will vary slightly because of the differing lengths of the clubs.

Width of stance will be different.
Ball position will be different from driver to irons.

 

[chellie]

Not really understanding what exactly you are referencing in your mention of 'set-up' being the same, some parts should be, but also there should be slight differences in set-up from the beginning and providing they are right they won't really change that much, unless a faults developed along the way, then things will change to get back to good set-up fundamentals.

It will be the same in terms of how you hold the club your grip, your aim in reference to ball/target line your body should be being aimed square to this, shoulders, chest, hips, knees, feet being all aimed parallel left of target, and ball/target line.

You'll have a forward (towards the ball/target line) leaning spine angle plus a spine tilt slightly away from target.
But the 'forward leaning' spine angle will vary slightly because of the differing lengths of the clubs.

Width of stance will be different.
Ball position will be different from driver to irons.

Ball position and width of stance the same. He's been teaching me from a complete beginner.

 

[the_coach]

Ball position and width of stance the same. He's been teaching me from a complete beginner.

Ok, just go with what your PGA pro is saying, as he will have a valid reason for this being the case. As your swing develops and movement gets better some things will change a little.

Don't get distracted by tips and hints from others, stick with what he's asking you to do and make time to practice these things between lessons and you'll make progress.

As you get more into to it and your swing and understanding of why particular things happen develops, it will all start to make a little better sense, what's often confusing at the beginning is the fact that the golf swing and what happens to the ball is completely counterintuitive.

But you've started off the right way going for proper lessons, some times it can all take more time than you want it to, to get better, but stick with it and it will, and enjoy it. Good luck.

 

[chellie]

Ok, just go with what your PGA pro is saying, as he will have a valid reason for this being the case. As your swing develops and movement gets better some things will change a little.

Don't get distracted by tips and hints from others, stick with what he's asking you to do and make time to practice these things between lessons and you'll make progress.

As you get more into to it and your swing and understanding of why particular things happen develops, it will all start to make a little better sense, what's often confusing at the beginning is the fact that the golf swing and what happens to the ball is completely counterintuitive.

But you've started off the right way going for proper lessons, some times it can all take more time than you want it to, to get better, but stick with it and it will, and enjoy it. Good luck.

I will and thanks