DQ and score for handicap

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Medal today off white tees.
3 ball in front all played off yellow tee on 9th hole.
As it happens I advised them and they played again from white tees with 2 shot penalty each.

I am wondering what would have happened if they weren’t told until after they’d teed off on the 10th and were therefore DQed from the competition regarding their scores for handicap purposes.

They could have completed their rounds and finalised their scores on the App before being made aware of it so any advice would be useful
 

Colin L

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Dick,
You'll find tables of breaches of the rules leading to a DQ which tell you when score can be accepted or not for handicapping in Guidance on the WHS Rules of Handicapping as Applied in GB&I, Appendix J, page 44.

Not correcting having played outside the teeing area is acceptable, a net double bogey being recorded.

https://www.congu.co.uk/whs/ and follow the link labelled. CONGU Advice on the World Handicap System
 

jim8flog

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You can only penalise players for infringements you know of .

They can have the penalty applied if they or you become aware of it before the comp is closed. If teh comp has been closed it a DQ and you would have to reopen the comp and amend their cards.

Guidance on the Rules of Handicapping Appendix J is abit contrary
Page 45

Play from outside of teeing area not corrected (not Max Score, Stableford or Par/Bogey)
Adjust using NDB to produce an acceptable score

Page 46
Playing from the wrong teeing area (not corrected and resulting in the round not being played) (Not applicable to Max Score, Stableford or Par/Bogey)
Not acceptable


I would go by the former on the basis of
Note 1
As a general principle, if a score would have been acceptable under Stableford or Maximum Score conditions it should, whenever possible, be acceptable for handicap purposes in Stroke Play following adjustment for any hole where the player has either failed to hole out, or failed to produce a score that satisfied the Rules of Golf.
 

Colin L

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Jim
I'm wondering why you are referring to applying a penalty later where the player was unaware of it. The penalty in the case of playing outside the teeing area is 2 strokes. The DQ is for failing to correct the error. You could only apply the exception to 3.3b(3) to a player who played from outside the teeing area, then played correctly from the teeing area but was unaware there was a 2 stroke penalty. It can't apply to a failure to correct the error. That's a DQ. Apologies If I've misread you.

I suggest that the difference between the two statements you find contradictory is that the first is about one breach of the rule and the other is about playing an entire round off the wrong tees. What do you think?
 
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I struggle tou nderstand how a group playin goff the white tees for 9 holes would suddenly revert to the yellows.

However, my alcohol consumption this evening has b een quite high so i coubld be missing someting
 
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It was just a silly error by them - all were seniors who play off yellows on Mondays so not unusual
I’ve done it twice since I became a senior - in my first senior competition I played off the 18th white tee whilst my partners were sorting their scorecards having not had an issue for the previous 17. I did it again a couple of Saturdays ago on the 4th for some inexplicable reason.
us seniors generally put it down to brain fade , age, medical impairment or anything else we can think if!
 

jim8flog

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I struggle tou nderstand how a group playin goff the white tees for 9 holes would suddenly revert to the yellows.

However, my alcohol consumption this evening has b een quite high so i coubld be missing someting
Alcohol-:LOL: it was playing of the yellows on the 9th not nine holes.
 

Colin L

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It was just a silly error by them - all were seniors who play off yellows on Mondays so not unusual
I’ve done it twice since I became a senior - in my first senior competition I played off the 18th white tee whilst my partners were sorting their scorecards having not had an issue for the previous 17. I did it again a couple of Saturdays ago on the 4th for some inexplicable reason.
us seniors generally put it down to brain fade , age, medical impairment or anything else we can think if!
Obviously it was the sun in your eyes.
 

jim8flog

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Jim
I'm wondering why you are referring to applying a penalty later where the player was unaware of it. The penalty in the case of playing outside the teeing area is 2 strokes. The DQ is for failing to correct the error. You could only apply the exception to 3.3b(3) to a player who played from outside the teeing area, then played correctly from the teeing area but was unaware there was a 2 stroke penalty. It can't apply to a failure to correct the error. That's a DQ. Apologies If I've misread you.

I suggest that the difference between the two statements you find contradictory is that the first is about one breach of the rule and the other is about playing an entire round off the wrong tees. What do you think?
Having read through Appendix J more than once I still am confused about which way they want us to go

Re the later bit I am assuming the Dicks question relates to a 'what if' outside of what actually happened (his second Para).
 
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Alcohol-:LOL: it was playing of the yellows on the 9th not nine holes.
No....my thought was that why suddenly tee off on the 9th hole off the yellows, after they'd played the previous 8 holes off the whites...obviously I said 9 holes which I didn't mean.

It was however difficult to communicate my thoughts to my fingers at half one in the morning!!!
 

Swango1980

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No....my thought was that why suddenly tee off on the 9th hole off the yellows, after they'd played the previous 8 holes off the whites...obviously I said 9 holes which I didn't mean.

It was however difficult to communicate my thoughts to my fingers at half one in the morning!!!
It is strange. I can see one golfer teeing off the yellows mid round, many have done it including me. Brain freeze. But, I have yet to ever see an entire group do it, or even more than one from the same group. The second person that tees off normally says "Oh dear, I think you just teed off the yellows" when they notice they are teeing up from a different spot to the guy who played first.

Mind you, I don't play in Seniors comps. Recently a couple of Seniors (experienced players) played in one of our Stableford events, and the guy playing with them had to tell them they are not allowed gimmes.
 

Slab

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I've been in an entire group that did it in a roll up game
The whites and yellows on this hole are on entirely different teeing areas however on this day the yellows were moved back to where the whites usually are and the white tees back to another teeing area where the black tees are located
We walked up to the usual teeing area for whites and didn't notice a thing until called out on the bar afterwards 😡
 
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Can't see why it is worth a two shot penalty after all what is the advantage? OK if on a par three I suppose it could help club selection for the repeat shot but surely one shot is sufficient penalty.
 

jim8flog

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Can't see why it is worth a two shot penalty after all what is the advantage? OK if on a par three I suppose it could help club selection for the repeat shot but surely one shot is sufficient penalty.
That arguement could put for all 2 shot penalties but in my view there has to some graduation in penalty scores. Wrong tee could gain you 50 yards on some holes where I play one shot would hardly seem fair. Put it this way - one shot for getting it wrong and one shot for the distance gained would seem fair if penalties worked that way.
 
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Don't agree. Rules come in different sorts. There are rules that cover how the game is played - equipment, clubs, balls etc designed so that everyone starts off with a level playing field. Then there are rules that try to make sure you pay for a bad shot or if you are caught "cheating" or in some way gain an unfair advantage over fellow players - 2 shot penalty rules. Then there are rules that cover situations which should be discouraged but which confer little if any advantage and which don't affect the game too much - hitting the ball with a practice swing for example- which are 1 shot penalty rules. My point was that playing from the wrong place on the tee is against the rules and must be corrected by playing from the right place but if this is done immediately then the advantage is minimal. I was not suggesting playing from the wrong place and then continuing as if nothing had happened, but that immediately realising the error and playing again from the right place was a 1 shot penalty offence. I don't see how you could argue about reducing a 2 shot penalty for out of bounds for example or indeed for virtually all 2 shot penalty rules as they almost invariably penalise actions that would confer a definite advantage. The rule I was commenting on is one of the few exceptions
 

rulie

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See Rule 1.3, Playing by the Rules
Rule 1.3a - Meaning of the Rules; Terms of the Competition
Rule 1.3b - Applying the Rules
Rule 1.3c - Penalties

The Rules are meant to make the playing of the game consistent around the globe and to treat similar situations alike.
Penalties apply for breaches of the Rules, and the ruling bodies have determined the appropriate penalty for each breach. Players are expected to know and follow the Rules.
It seems like some players want to blame their higher scores on the penalty strokes for Rules breaches - if so, eliminating the breaches eliminates the penalty strokes.
 
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Yes I appreciate that rules are rules and should be the same wherever you play. I accept that ruling bodies have determined the appropriate penalty for each breach and that one should adhere to these penalties. What I don't accept is that the aforementioned ruling bodies are infallible God like creatures and that their decisions are beyond contestation. In fact of course the ruling bodies accept this and continually make decisions that vary the interpretation of rules and every so often they sit down and change some rules completely. My point is that some of the rules do not, as rulie says, "treat similar situations alike" in that unintentional breaches of the rules that are in no real way advantageous to the player nor disadvantageous to other competitors can now result in no penalty (as rule changes now say they no longer matter although they always did before!), one shot or two shots.
Perhaps someone could explain in simple terms the real difference between my examples - hitting the ball twice, no penalty; hitting the ball on a practice swing and replacing it before proceeding, one shot penalty; hitting the ball from the wrong place on the tee and immediately hitting one from the correct place, two shot penalty.
 
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Yes I appreciate that rules are rules and should be the same wherever you play. I accept that ruling bodies have determined the appropriate penalty for each breach and that one should adhere to these penalties. What I don't accept is that the aforementioned ruling bodies are infallible God like creatures and that their decisions are beyond contestation. In fact of course the ruling bodies accept this and continually make decisions that vary the interpretation of rules and every so often they sit down and change some rules completely. My point is that some of the rules do not, as rulie says, "treat similar situations alike" in that unintentional breaches of the rules that are in no real way advantageous to the player nor disadvantageous to other competitors can now result in no penalty (as rule changes now say they no longer matter although they always did before!), one shot or two shots.
Perhaps someone could explain in simple terms the real difference between my examples - hitting the ball twice, no penalty; hitting the ball on a practice swing and replacing it before proceeding, one shot penalty; hitting the ball from the wrong place on the tee and immediately hitting one from the correct place, two shot penalty.
Don't know the answer as I am not on the R&A rules committee, but it could be to avoid the sceatio where a player tee's off, hits it out of bounds and then says, oh but hit from the wrong place. It is also consistent with hitting he ball from a wrong place anywhere else on the course.
 

rulefan

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Perhaps someone could explain in simple terms the real difference between my examples - hitting the ball twice, no penalty; hitting the ball on a practice swing and replacing it before proceeding, one shot penalty; hitting the ball from the wrong place on the tee and immediately hitting one from the correct place, two shot penalty.
I'll have a go.
1) Once the ball has left the clubface the player has no control of what happens to the ball
2) When taking a practice swing the player has the opportunity to ensure he doesn't hit his ball accidentally. ie he is in control
3) The player has complete control over a) where he chooses to place the ball and b) to confirm the situation before he makes a stroke.
 

wjemather

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Perhaps someone could explain in simple terms the real difference between my examples - hitting the ball twice, no penalty; hitting the ball on a practice swing and replacing it before proceeding, one shot penalty; hitting the ball from the wrong place on the tee and immediately hitting one from the correct place, two shot penalty.
Hitting the ball twice is an unavoidable accident; hitting the ball during a practice swing may be accidental but it is entirely avoidable; teeing it up in the wrong place and making a stroke is a result of a sequence of deliberate acts.
 
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