Dislodged leaf

[Vikingman]

What exactly is the rule if you dislodge a leaf from a tree during a practice swing.

If the leaf is dislodged on the follow through, not the back swing, is a 1 shot penalty still incurred or is there no penalty because you've not really improved your position?

 

[chrisd]

What exactly is the rule if you dislodge a leaf from a tree during a practice swing.

If the leaf is dislodged on the follow through, not the back swing, is a 1 shot penalty still incurred or is there no penalty because you've not really improved your position?

This is a good one!

My understanding is that, on the follow through it's ok and there is no penalty, as you say, you havnt improved your backswing path. Dislodging leaves is not necessarily a penalty on the backswing practice. Often you would practice away from the actual line so you may not improve the swing path anyway. Then it's down to whether you've improved the path at all. If the tree has huge leaves and you dislodge one or two it could significantly improve the line, if the tree has hundreds of small leaves, a few dislodged my make absolutely no difference.

So, it's a really difficult one and it's only a penalty if the line is improved, not just if leaves are dislodged

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Surely this dislodging of leaves on the backswing is just the same as swishing through and bending grass on your backswing take-away when in deep rough. The latter clearly doesn't incur a penalty so why should the former?

 

[chrisd]

Surely this dislodging of leaves on the backswing is just the same as swishing through and bending grass on your backswing take-away when in deep rough. The latter clearly doesn't incur a penalty so why should the former?

You are not allowed to improve the line of the backswing during practice swings but I hope I summed it up properly in my earlier posting

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

There are 2 scenarios to this one really:

1) If you are taking practice swings well away from where your 'real' swing will be played from, then there is no penalty.

2) If you are practising on your actual swingpath for your shot and dislodge something then you incur a penalty. If you dislodge something when actually playing the shot BUT continue through with the shot, that does not incur a penalty.

This is covered by rule 13-2.

 

[williamalex1]

Search for forum previous post - rule 13-2/22. will save you some time

 

[rulefan]

2) If you are practising on your actual swingpath for your shot and dislodge something then you incur a penalty. If you dislodge something when actually playing the shot BUT continue through with the shot, that does not incur a penalty.

Not quite. From Decision 13-2/0.5

In the context of Rule 13-2, "improve" means to change for the better so that the player gains a potential advantage with respect to the position or lie of his ball, the area of his intended stance or swing, his line of play or a reasonable extension of that line beyond the hole, or the area in which he is to drop or place a ball. Therefore, merely changing an area protected by Rule 13-2 will not be a breach of Rule 13-2 unless it creates such a potential advantage for the player in his play.
Examples of changes that are unlikely to create such a potential advantage are if a player:

• accidentally knocks down several leaves from a tree in his area of intended swing with a practice swing, but there are still so many leaves or branches remaining that the area of intended swing has not been materially affected;

Examples of changes that are likely to create such a potential advantage are if a player:

• accidentally knocks down a single leaf from a tree in his area of intended swing with a practice swing, but, as this was one of very few leaves that might either interfere with his swing or fall and thereby distract him, the area of intended swing has been materially affected;

 

[Colin L]

Surely this dislodging of leaves on the backswing is just the same as swishing through and bending grass on your backswing take-away when in deep rough. The latter clearly doesn't incur a penalty so why should the former?

There is no problem in knocking down leaves etc with any part of your swing when you are making a stroke. The question is about practice swings where it could improve the area of your swing and be a breach of Rule 13-2. And the wording is quite clearly improving the area of your swing, so that includes the follow through.

 

[chrisd]

Not quite. From Decision 13-2/0.5

In the context of Rule 13-2, "improve" means to change for the better so that the player gains a potential advantage with respect to the position or lie of his ball, the area of his intended stance or swing, his line of play or a reasonable extension of that line beyond the hole, or the area in which he is to drop or place a ball. Therefore, merely changing an area protected by Rule 13-2 will not be a breach of Rule 13-2 unless it creates such a potential advantage for the player in his play.
Examples of changes that are unlikely to create such a potential advantage are if a player:

• accidentally knocks down several leaves from a tree in his area of intended swing with a practice swing, but there are still so many leaves or branches remaining that the area of intended swing has not been materially affected;

Examples of changes that are likely to create such a potential advantage are if a player:

• accidentally knocks down a single leaf from a tree in his area of intended swing with a practice swing, but, as this was one of very few leaves that might either interfere with his swing or fall and thereby distract him, the area of intended swing has been materially affected;

Isn't that pretty much what I said?

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Not quite. From Decision 13-2/0.5

In the context of Rule 13-2, "improve" means to change for the better so that the player gains a potential advantage with respect to the position or lie of his ball, the area of his intended stance or swing, his line of play or a reasonable extension of that line beyond the hole, or the area in which he is to drop or place a ball. Therefore, merely changing an area protected by Rule 13-2 will not be a breach of Rule 13-2 unless it creates such a potential advantage for the player in his play.
Examples of changes that are unlikely to create such a potential advantage are if a player:

• accidentally knocks down several leaves from a tree in his area of intended swing with a practice swing, but there are still so many leaves or branches remaining that the area of intended swing has not been materially affected;

Examples of changes that are likely to create such a potential advantage are if a player:

• accidentally knocks down a single leaf from a tree in his area of intended swing with a practice swing, but, as this was one of very few leaves that might either interfere with his swing or fall and thereby distract him, the area of intended swing has been materially affected;

Blimey, that is clear as mud!

So if I've read it right..... you can dislodge a leaf or whatever but if there are loads of them and you gain no advantage, it's not a penalty? Surely that is going to be open to individual interpretation and therefore inconsistent?

I also notice that decision is from the USGA, is it the same for the R&A?

 

[chrisd]

Blimey, that is clear as mud!

So if I've read it right..... you can dislodge a leaf or whatever but if there are loads of them and you gain no advantage, it's not a penalty? Surely that is going to be open to individual interpretation and therefore inconsistent?

I also notice that decision is from the USGA, is it the same for the R&A?

This matter was aired a while back and we agreed, if I remember rightly, that there were likely to be punch ups over interpretation on the course!

 

[Colin L]

Isn't that pretty much what I said?

Erm, not quite. As I said, you have to consider any possible improvement to the area of your swing which is not confined to your backswing. Also, it is possible that knocking down leaves and twigs or breaking a branch with the follow through of your practice swing could improve your line of play, also a breach of 13-2.

So if I've read it right..... you can dislodge a leaf or whatever but if there are loads of them and you gain no advantage, it's not a penalty? Surely that is going to be open to individual interpretation and therefore inconsistent?

I also notice that decision is from the USGA, is it the same for the R&A?

Yes, it is clearly a matter of judgment of individual cases whether there has been an improvement to area of swing etc.
All the Rules and Decisions are R&A/USGA. No differences.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Have to say, I'm surprised at that. Leaving something that wide open to interpretation is asking for trouble

 

[williamalex1]

Have to say, I'm surprised at that. Leaving something that wide open to interpretation is asking for trouble

If you search the old posts for rule 13-2/22 I think , there is a video link of some American pro in that exact situation.

 

[Colin L]

Have to say, I'm surprised at that. Leaving something that wide open to interpretation is asking for trouble

How would you word an alternative which did not penalise a ridiculously minor knocking off of a leaf from a well endowed tree and did penalise major pruning?

 

[Imurg]

I'm with D4S on this - waaay to much latitude, it's all based on opinion over whether the line is materially improved or not.
Surely even knocking one leaf off a tree that has thousands has to improve your chances of getting back through them to the ball doesn't it? When I'm on one side of the fairway and my oppo is on the other in the trees and I see a leaf fall during a practice swing, how do I know if the line has been improved or not..?
I understand the principle of the decision but to leave it so open to interpretation is asking for the inevitable.....

 

[rulefan]

I'm with D4S on this - waaay to much latitude, it's all based on opinion over whether the line is materially improved or not.
Surely even knocking one leaf off a tree that has thousands has to improve your chances of getting back through them to the ball doesn't it? When I'm on one side of the fairway and my oppo is on the other in the trees and I see a leaf fall during a practice swing, how do I know if the line has been improved or not..?
I understand the principle of the decision but to leave it so open to interpretation is asking for the inevitable.....

Honesty.

It is not just about a small isolated leaf on a beech tree but also large individual leaves on tropical trees.
But how would you word the rule?

 

[MashieNiblick]

I'm with D4S on this - waaay to much latitude, it's all based on opinion over whether the line is materially improved or not.
Surely even knocking one leaf off a tree that has thousands has to improve your chances of getting back through them to the ball doesn't it? When I'm on one side of the fairway and my oppo is on the other in the trees and I see a leaf fall during a practice swing, how do I know if the line has been improved or not..?
I understand the principle of the decision but to leave it so open to interpretation is asking for the inevitable.....

Have been involved in one or two (good natured) discussions on this following leaves being knocked off and it is hard to make a call especially when you know you have to be fair on the player but also to the rest of the field. Individual judgements on such matters are likely to vary.

It would certainly be clearer if any disturbance of anything is an automatic penalty. Some Rules are effectively written in that way so that the act in itself generates a penalty irrespective of whether or not any actual advantage is gained. I guess there would be some explanation or note that dislodging anything is deemed in itself to be improving the area of intended swing etc.

Perhaps in an effort to interpret the Rule in a "fair" way the authorities have sacrificed some consistency and left too much scope for interpretation.

 

[MashieNiblick]

Honesty.

It is not just about a small isolated leaf on a beech tree but also large individual leaves on tropical trees.
But how would you word the rule?

Hmm always a good question and a good test when discussing whether a Rule should be changed.

How about the Rule stays the same but either have a note or change the Decision clarifying it (13-2/0.5 Meaning of "Improve" in Rule 13-2)with something like:

"For the purposes of this Rule, the dislodging or breaking of any attached or growing thing within the area of the player's intended swing is deemed to improve the area of the intended swing and the player incurs the applicable penalty under the Rule"

 

[Fyldewhite]

Yes, the wording does leave it open to interpretation but that is intentional. It allows common sense to be applied which is actually a good thing. There are other examples - eg provisional ball if ....."ball may be lost outside a water hazard" etc

In nearly all cases it will be obvious if the position is improved and any honest assessment of the situation would agree if it was a penalty or not. If there's doubt then players usually penalise themselves anyway. To answer the original question, as already stated, the area of your swing includes the follow through.....everyone would always prefer not to be hitting something on the follow through so if I knock a single big leaf off with my practice swing giving me a free swing then I have improved the area of my swing and would be penalised. If I knock one of a bunch of 10 off I probably wouldn't. If I knock one of 2 off??? then probably a penalty. Just down to your own honesty really....like nearly all the rules. The question to ask yourself is "have I now got a materially better situation than before?".