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chrisd

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I was chatting to a pal today and he told me the details of something that happened in a recent matchplay singles with another club member who is widely thought to do naughty things but no one has called him.

My pal was 2 down with 2 to play, his opponent , on a par 5, hooked the ball left and he (my pal) hit a stonker. His opponent found his ball on a path next to OOB which is a free drop, he told my pal it was his ball so he walked off to his ball. He then got a call to say that his opponent had now found his ball in the rough some 30 yards further up and played a beaut from there and from the shot effectively won the game.

My pal said that, in retrospect, his opponents ball couldn't have been further up as although he is a 3 h/capper he couldnt have hit that far and asked if he had broken any rules by firstly identifying the 1st ball as his then claiming the second was his?

I cant see anything that is against the rules and my pal concedes that he should have dealt with the situation better at the time and queried the matter.

Any thoughts?
 

fundy

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Id have asked him if he was cheating when he announced the first ball as his or the second ball as his - it had to be one of them. Then Id have claimed the hole, told him I would be reporting him to the committee and headed off to the 18th tee
 

Imurg

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If it was only 30 yards further then a decent bounce may have put it that far so you can't really say that it's impossible for it to be there. The Penalty kicks in when you play a wrong ball, not when you identify it correctly or incorrectly.
There could have been some foul play but it's impossible to tell. Not worth getting steamed up about - if he wants to win that badly that he has to cheat then he's a poor Golfer and Person and isn't worth the time. Your Mate will know when the other Guy won't look him in the eye again.....
 

daymond

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Seems hard to understand how the opponent was cheating and was trying to gain an advantage as the first ball was allowed a free drop. If he then declares the second ball in the rough to be his he has therefore played the first one as a wrong ball.
 

pbrown7582

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Not much you can do if he says it his ball you can only challenge him if you doubt it at the time and he has declared his ball to you ie titleist 4 with red dots if it turns out to a titleist 3 you've got him.

Does sound suspect but also his reputation/ Chinese whispers won't help.
 

fundy

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am i missing something here? has he actually declared the first ball wasnt his at any point here? before starting to look for the ball again and subsequently finding the second of his supposed balls?
 

Imurg

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As long as he doesn't play a stroke at it he's ok to suddenly realise that it's not his and continue to look for the real one. As long as he finds it within the 5 minutes he's ok.
This has happened to me before.. I've thought ball A was mine, was about to play it but a fly sat on it, brushed the fly away to discover that it wasn't mine after all. A quick look 15 yards further up was my ball, a little buried in the rough to conceal it.
Can't see the problem.
 

chrisd

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If it was only 30 yards further then a decent bounce may have put it that far so you can't really say that it's impossible for it to be there. The Penalty kicks in when you play a wrong ball, not when you identify it correctly or incorrectly.
There could have been some foul play but it's impossible to tell. Not worth getting steamed up about - if he wants to win that badly that he has to cheat then he's a poor Golfer and Person and isn't worth the tie. Your Matewill know when the other Guy won't look him in the eye again.....


Agreed Imurg, he has won more "gold letter comps" than most but has always been the subject of whispers

Seems hard to understand how the opponent was cheating and was trying to gain an advantage as the first ball was allowed a free drop. If he then declares the second ball in the rough to be his he has therefore played the first one as a wrong ball.

The drop would have been in a tree line and the other ball was a clear shot to the green


am i missing something here? has he actually declared the first ball wasnt his at any point here? before starting to look for the ball again and subsequently finding the second of his supposed balls?

Just decided that the second ball was his and forgot the first after he spotted a ball further up the course
 

19thagain

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Id have asked him if he was cheating when he announced the first ball as his or the second ball as his - it had to be one of them. Then Id have claimed the hole, told him I would be reporting him to the committee and headed off to the 18th tee

Some really lovely people play golf!!

For Heavens sake read some of the other contributions on this thread and realise you are on your way to being a lonely golfer ... accusing people of being cheats because they misidentify their ball .. it may have been the same make and number with the personal marking not evident without closer investigating .. but he is a cheat .. he may have lucky enough to have hit the path and enjoyed a better bounce than that afforded by the fairway .. but he is a cheat .. he is a low handicapper and a champion golfer ... but he is a cheat .. how very sad!!
 

chrisd

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Some really lovely people play golf!!

For Heavens sake read some of the other contributions on this thread and realise you are on your way to being a lonely golfer ... accusing people of being cheats because they misidentify their ball .. it may have been the same make and number with the personal marking not evident without closer investigating .. but he is a cheat .. he may have lucky enough to have hit the path and enjoyed a better bounce than that afforded by the fairway .. but he is a cheat .. he is a low handicapper and a champion golfer ... but he is a cheat .. how very sad!!


To be fair, the guy is a low h/capper and widely thought to cheat when necessary, but 19th, no one has ever reported him and I think that Fundy would be up against it by calling him a cheat so directly as you do need to prove the accusation, and I think that the player could, on that occasion have not been cheating and then he would look a right chump.
 

19thagain

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That's my point Chris.

The use of this term carries a heavy responsibility to both the accused and the accuser.

I know of an accused who lost his position as his employers felt the golfing Chinese whispers could be impacting on his relationship with his clients.(Wealth advising at a high level)

I also know of a poor guy who was certain that a chap was cheating but despite great backing in the bar was isolated when he made his accusation to the council, as he found he now had no backers. He had to find another club and was threatened with legal action!!
 

Jon321

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I can see the point here I think. If he was prepared to play the first ball he should have been certain it was his, checked his ID mark. But how can he then decide the second is his? Sure both balls didn't have exactly the same mark on it?

So if he has declared both as his, he was lying on one of the occasions? Probably not actually breaking a rule unless you can prove the second ball wasn't the one he hit off the tee. But I think the overall point is he has claimed two different balls to be his?
 

chrisd

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That's my point Chris.

The use of this term carries a heavy responsibility to both the accused and the accuser.

Thats so true and why no one has ever "called" the guy but everyone says to watch him like a hawk




I can see the point here I think. If he was prepared to play the first ball he should have been certain it was his, checked his ID mark. But how can he then decide the second is his? Sure both balls didn't have exactly the same mark on it?

So if he has declared both as his, he was lying on one of the occasions? Probably not actually breaking a rule unless you can prove the second ball wasn't the one he hit off the tee. But I think the overall point is he has claimed two different balls to be his?

If I remember, he maks his ball by using a tee too make an indentation in one of the dimples - very hard to see and certainly for anyone to check. He is a monster off the tee and seems to always find his ball just as everyone says its lost, and often after the search is given up and playing partners start to walk
 

MashieNiblick

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He is a monster off the tee and seems to always find his ball just as everyone says its lost, and often after the search is given up and playing partners start to walk

Maybe a case where you need to stick with him and help him search until the whole 5 mins is up and then say clearly that it is now a lost ball.
 

chrisd

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Maybe a case where you need to stick with him and help him search until the whole 5 mins is up and then say clearly that it is now a lost ball.


On the occasions when I have played against him I, and my, partner have had one of us watching him like a hawk and the other one searching for his ball but never take at least one pair of eyes off of him and have never been cheated as I am sure he sees what we are doing
 

Foxholer

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H'mm. Toughie!

Given the suspicions, perhaps an error not staying with him when he 'found' the first one?

If he had actually identified the 1st as hi, then I'd have asked him, in my best diplomatic style, how he did so, then found his 'actual' ball further up. I'd also be inclined to suggest that he marks his ball rather clearer - even offering him use of my marker, so that he can do so.

Sounds dodgy, but nothing concrete enough to really do anything about - except add to the whisper mill!
 

chrisd

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H'mm. Toughie!

Given the suspicions, perhaps an error not staying with him when he 'found' the first one?

If he had actually identified the 1st as hi, then I'd have asked him, in my best diplomatic style, how he did so, then found his 'actual' ball further up. I'd also be inclined to suggest that he marks his ball rather clearer - even offering him use of my marker, so that he can do so.

Sounds dodgy, but nothing concrete enough to really do anything about - except add to the whisper mill!


Lets be honest, the guy is a cheat but, as a low handicapper, and clever with it, he hasn't been called but most know him and make it obvious they are watching him and therefore he is forced to behave with them
 

MadAdey

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I would walk carefully chris. Nothing can be proved and it may just sound like sour grapes moaning about him after loosing. I would not walk around the clubhouse either spouting off about his antics either as that can just make you look like a trouble maker. If it was me I would just keep enjoying the golf and leave people like to get on with their pathetic little lives if winning means that much to them.
 

chrisd

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I would walk carefully chris. Nothing can be proved and it may just sound like sour grapes moaning about him after loosing. I would not walk around the clubhouse either spouting off about his antics either as that can just make you look like a trouble maker. If it was me I would just keep enjoying the golf and leave people like to get on with their pathetic little lives if winning means that much to them.

Most of the longer serving members know him only too well, I personally have never seen him cheat and dont have a gripe with him unless I do. I posted after being told by a pal who played him of the incident and only did so for the discussion and opinions that have been expressed.

The only bit I have a problem with is that the guy in question has probably won more "Gold Letter" comps in recent years than any other member and I have to wonder how many were won fairly, especially with the prize money that goes with the trophy! Foxholer is right though - the whisper mill will ineviatably roll on.
 

MadAdey

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I had an RAF golf match once against someone who both me and my partner suspected of cheating. He was spraying his driver all over the place, but it did not matter how deep the grass was, he managed to find it and he always had a shot to the green. Only time he did not find it or have a nice shot to the green was when we went with him into the thick stuff. Bit of a coincidence? Or was he not being given the opportunity to cheat? Either way I could not prove anything so had to live with it? I did loose the match, but I was starting to loose the will to live and stopped caring towards the end of the game due to him obviously cheating.
 
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